This week Marcus Torgerson, a leadership coach and author, shares his struggles with abuse, alcoholism, and familial challenges, and how these events shaped his path to writing his book, ‘Be a Man: What the Firetruck Does That Even Mean?’ The conversation highlights the importance of forgiveness, self-reflection, and the power of turning personal pain into a tool for helping others. Key topics include the challenges and rewards of writing, understanding personal trauma, breaking down barriers in communication, and fostering genuine connection and introspection among men.
Episode Highlights:
11:43 Understanding and Embracing Manhood
29:27 Reflections on Personal Growth and Change
31:32 Understanding and Supporting Men
43:19 The Role of Self-Compassion
Marcus Torgerson, known as the “Warrior Shepherd,” blends over 40 years of martial and combat arts with two decades in security to guide others with strength and compassion. Grounded in faith and forged by life experience, Marcus walks the line between warrior and mentor. As a coach, he empowers individuals to rise above their challenges and grow into their full potential. His approach is deeply personal, shaped by the belief that everyone’s journey deserves tailored support, conviction, and heart. Through resilience, discipline, and grace, Marcus helps others find the balance needed to lead with purpose and live with strength.
Learn more at: https://www.marcustorgerson.com/
Follow him on Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/marcustorgerson/
Purchase the book: https://www.amazon.com
Episode Transcript:
00:32
Now, here’s your host, Marcus Aurelius Anderson. Acta Non Verba is a Latin phrase that means actions, not words. If you want to know what somebody truly believes, don’t listen to their words. Instead, observe their actions. I’m Marcus Aurelius Anderson, and my guest today truly embodies that phrase. Who is Marcus Torgerson? He’s a flawed man.
01:02
And by the time he reached his 56 years young, he’d been bankrupt on every level, mentally, physically, spiritually, and financially. Rock bottom, he was actually buried. From before his birth to the present, he’s lived a life of survival. He’s the product of a botched abortion. He was raised by a single mother because his father died when he was three years old. He was sexually molested on two different occasions by men. His mother was a violent alcoholic. He was an only child. He is a loner.
01:31
And he is recovering alcoholic, divorced twice and has found faith in redemption in Jesus Christ. Is he flawed? Absolutely. But he’s written a book for both men and women that you can learn from. Be a man. What the fire truck does that even mean? I recommend everybody grab this a very easy read. Grab this, read it with your son, your daughter, your wife, your husband. We talk about love languages. This is how men speak. This is how men.
02:01
Communicate in this conversation today. We’re gonna break through a lot of barriers and cut through the bullshit Marcus. Thank you again for being here Wow First of all, I can’t believe it’s been two years. That’s like insane it’s it’s Kind of cool to hear somebody say what roughly 56 years of age is in a small thing. That’s Wow, I’m just got wow Well, thanks for having me on
02:30
I appreciate it, brother. And thank you for doing what you’re doing. Thank you for writing this book. We were discussing before how if you write a book, people will come up and say, I’ve always wanted to write a book. And to that, say, why not? Why aren’t you? And there’s two things that we need to write a book. An outline and a deadline. And besides that, we just got to set our asses down as Steven Pressfield would say, and do the work. Doing the work is the hard part. Being able to put down on paper.
03:00
what we’re trying to say, and then questioning, this even worth the paper it’s written on? Who am I to write this? What qualifications do I have, right? And I see you shaking your head, understanding this. So please, please tell me what made you want to write this book and what was the edifice that really made you begin the work? Well, first of let’s negate that lie, that lie, who am I to write anything, which a big part of the actual publication of this
03:29
ended up killing that lie because it was a lie that I was told my entire, really most of my childhood, because my mother, bless her, she didn’t mean to be this mean and ugly, but she would call me dumb all the time and dumb cough, know, and German, and you’re never gonna amount to anything. And when I published this book, I will get to the answer to this question, promise, but to publish this book was a way of
03:57
And that’s why I published it on the anniversary of her death, 20 years, to say, first of all, those lies aren’t true. And mom, you know what? I forgive you even more, even though I forgave her in the past, it’s layers. I forgive you even more for not, you just did the best you could with the tools that you had. And if there’s one thing that this book has been, has been breaking those lies of who you think you are,
04:26
versus who you were put on this earth to be. Initially this book, so everything about this book is spirit-led. There’s not one part of it and it doesn’t, you don’t have to have any faith to read this book, obviously, right? Like you don’t have to. It’s a book for men, about men, to be read by men and women. But to deny where it came from would be a lie. It came from the Lord. I was in the shower. I was in the shower and had been leading up to things about
04:55
There was a video about a guy who would be from Boston. He’s like, be a man. And then would come up with some macho nonsense at the end of it. And it always irked me and people would send it to me and it would just irritate me because I don’t even know what being a man is. And in the last few years, we’ve had so many dividing statements on what being a man is. And I was in the shower and the title, be a man originally was going to be what the fig Newton does that even mean?
05:23
but I was worried about getting sued by Fig Newton. So a person of faith came up and was saying something. said, what? Ah, something fire truck. went, fire truck? What is that? He goes, man, that’s a nice way to say in that F word. was like, oh, oh, take that. And so it became what the fire truck and it just worked out well. And so over the course of time, and this is one thing, if you’re writing a book and you’re like, I don’t know if I can write it all. First of all, my writing is me talking into my phone.
05:53
Okay. So I would literally be in the shower. I would get something, reach over, dry my hands, voice note, whatever that part of the chapter was going to be. And then thank, you know, my editor, God bless her cave is just phenomenal because she would, I’ve sent the storage. She, I can’t even imagine. I don’t know how she turned all that into English because what you’ve read is, is heaven sent, but it came in the shower. Every part of this book.
06:22
was impacted either when I was in the shower, coming out of the shower, going for a walk. I’d be walking five in the morning and all of a a section would come in or a topic would come in and I’d, and a year later, almost, almost to the day, here we are. I think that’s a great testament and example. A lot of my clients today, they’re drivers, right? They’re go-getters. They’re CEOs, they’re leaders, they’re founders, and they want to push.
06:51
And every moment of their day has stimuli, something gibbering in their ear, whether it’s podcasts, it’s a great book, it’s their next level of trying to learn something. And when we do that, there’s so much background noise that it makes it impossible to reach that other side, to find that divine God. Steven Presswell talks about the muse. How did we have to be in that place? We have to.
07:20
be found working. We have to be found primed in the environment to be worthy of whatever that download is that is being given to us. And so I love that you’re saying for many people, the shower is where it happens because they don’t get themselves those that space. They don’t get themselves that time. And then here’s the other part. And I love that you’re pointing this out. You can have that idea and then say, you know, I’ll wait until I’m to the office. I’ll wait time over here. I’ll wait.
07:48
told just a second later, and then I’ll do this. And then you can try that. But then by the time you get over there, you’re going to say, now, what was that? It seems so perfect when I was thinking it. So you literally did exactly what you should do, which is I’m just going to word vomit this into a phone right now. I’ll figure it out later, but a lot of people will do that. And again, it happens sometimes at not very appropriate times or not convenient times. Like you said, you’re walking, you’re about to fall asleep.
08:17
Mm-hmm, whatever it is, but if you don’t listen to that when it’s given to you, here’s what happens It’ll give you one maybe two shots and then after that You just might gonna get that opportunity again. So I’m so glad you jumped on it when you did. Yeah. Yeah, I think You know when we when we look at writing Brains brain you mentioned Steven Pressfield who’s just I actually have warrior ethos right there I’m looking right at it. You know, he’s such a
08:44
Well, you, you know, and then my other favorite author, Jack Carr, prolific. Yes. Right. I just want to make sure that whoever’s listening to this right now and they’re like, well, I want to write a book. I’m not sure about it. Please don’t compare yourself to anybody that you read or listen to because then you’re already going to shoot yourself in the foot. And the, and the most challenging part is there’s everybody has a book inside of them. Everybody. Right.
09:13
I I’m going to just butcher this, but there’s a saying about the most important book ever written is in the drawer of somebody’s desk because they never got it published. Even if you write it and only your three closest friends buy the book, you’ve already beat 95 % of the population. If there was ever a time on earth to publish your work or
09:43
or create that art and put it out in the world. Now is the time, the most perfect time on the history of mankind. Now’s the time for you to let out whatever that is art creativity wise. So I just wanna make sure that if you’re listening to this and you’re like, I’m not sure, that’s a lie. Just do it, just do it. And you’re gonna suck at it. And that’s good because that’s the only way you learn.
10:09
It is by every mistake they make in the, in, so you get to the final process. And even after the final process, you’re like, Oh Lord, lesson learned. And that’s what it is. Every book that we write is almost like a snapshot. The picture that we take of each other in this moment is going to be different six months, a year, two years, three years from now. And that’s fine. But it’s just this sort of like landmark. And again, so for you, this is the first one and that’s the hardest one lots of times, usually. But the second one.
10:39
is the hardest and the third one is the hardest. Each one that we’re trying to do when we have resistance or adversity pushing back is the hardest. I was at Steven’s writing retreat, I think, you know, uh, last year in Malibu and you know, I asked him, said, which is, which is easier fiction or nonfiction? He’s like, neither. said, which one is easier with time? He’s like, none of it, the process every single time there’s always friction, there’s always resistance. So for those people that are saying, okay, I’ve done this much, but, but now it’s even harder.
11:09
Here’s what happens. Our skillset, just like in martial arts, the first time I learned to throw a punch, it’s going to be horrendous. And then I feel like I improve almost in leaps and bounds. Yeah. But then I faced that next level, which is difficult. So again, when you’re writing this book, when you’re writing anything, when you’re trying to create something that’s going to help somebody else, you will constantly run into some sort of pushback resistance friction. And when we run into that, we should be saying that’s good.
11:38
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, exactly. Thank you. Right. Because I get to learn this is the opportunity. You made a beautiful comment earlier before we hit record where you were saying that comparison is the thief of joy, but in actuality it’s necessary for us to be able to see the man that I see before me now at 56 compared to the man that you were even two years ago when we were speaking again and we’ve known each other for a while and interact on social media. But yeah, that man was not in a position
12:08
that time, you know, to be able to give this book what it means, but yet here you are and you’re doing an incredible job with it. And to anybody that wants to be able to have conversations, this book is a great way to be that catalyst. can buy this book for multiple people. You can buy it for your men’s group. can buy it for your AA group. You can buy it for your women’s group. You can buy it for clubs. You can buy as many of these things as you want, and this will help somebody. So.
12:38
A lot of people that are listening to this are men. There are still a lot of female listeners in here. And the important thing is being able to understand what is going on in a man’s Going understanding that there is still a lot even within us where we are still conflicted, even in men’s men, trying to understand what does that mean? So give us a little bit of insight into that. You’re smiling. Well, I’m smiling because the idea of a group of men
13:09
let’s say 10 men. And usually in a group, you know, there’s one guy who’s leading the group or whatever. But if, if you just took 10 people, 10 men and said, okay, everyone had to read the book. Everyone read the book. Okay. What is your favorite chapter? And I’m just going to pick a couple. Like to be honest with you, I don’t even remember the names of the chapters. And there’s a couple that I remember. And one of them will be a be a be kind of dumb animals. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I love that one. And then one guy will have the courage to say,
13:38
But you know what, really enjoyed that one about love people where they’re at, not where you want them to be. Now, the reason I bring that up is because love, hugs, you know, the book dives into how much I implore men to be that way and to get rid of the garbage that they’re taught. But the fact that one guy would have the guts to that, and then if you were to able to read the minds, the other nine, I’m sure at least five or six of them would be like, yeah, man, that was, I was going to say that one, but.
14:06
I didn’t want to be judged by. And that’s the purpose of this conversation and all these conversations for men to just get rid of their garbage about, you know what? I like to hug my kids. I like when a man will hug me because I feel safe. Cut all the, the just the lying garbage that is associated with open conversation and just speak freely without
14:34
judgment without condemnation without shame, know that if Honestly should a group be able to do that? A church that I speak at in Oklahoma the the head pastor they’re bought like ten books and they can throw them at the At the men’s thing and I’m going up in a couple of weeks to be able to sit there and go. Okay We’re just gonna start this conversation with pick apart that you enjoyed pick apart that you hate it just to get the conversation because I think if we
15:04
If men can agree on one thing, it should be dialogue. Healthy, constructive, open, honest dialogue, communication in a way that is without, I was going to say without boundaries. think boundaries is important, but without judgment. Right? And that’s where that comparisons the heap of joy. I don’t want to compare my manhood to your manhood. Right? Or, or we compare our manhood to
15:32
somebody else’s and then feel inferior because we’re not like so and so. That’s all online. I can be a man that I am right now and I have something to offer somebody else and somebody else who lets I always use the car thing, right? I can’t change the tire or change the oil. Well, you’re what kind of effeminate man are you? Hold on. Let’s look at how they were brought up. Let’s look at all that stuff. Like I didn’t have any real male role models, right?
16:02
And the ones that I did have, not so great. So instead, why don’t I get that surly old grumpy old get off my lawn guy to teach me how to do the things that I didn’t get to. And perhaps with luck, thank you, Jesus, that I can speak some way that will soften some of those rough edges. Because at the end of the day, nobody said a warrior had to be
16:30
all those things, is it, gardener and a warrior, a warrior and a garden? Our job is to build and to edify and to make feel safe as well as accept love, affection, attention by men and women without any type of, and again, it’s just garbage, just lies that says that a man should be, as soon as I hear a man should be, you’ve lost me. The only thing a man should be is present in who he is.
17:00
and open to what he could be and what he was made for. Thank you for coming to my TED talk. Well, that’s so true. And that’s very much, I think people forget about a true warrior is this 360 complete Renaissance man. Anybody that you see or that you’ve read about, that’s what they’ve done. And here’s the other part. You look at a person like Goggins or Jocko, again, people will put them in boxes because they’re easy to, this person’s this person’s that. But if you could sit down with these men and have conversations,
17:31
You would learn exactly what we’re saying. They have depth. They have breath. They have gone through things. There’s a certain part that people really seem to like, but that’s only one like small sliver of this entire pie. Does that existence. So is there a time to say, get after it? Is there a time to say, stay hard? Absolutely. Yeah. But it’s almost like saying, if all you have is a hammer, then everything is a nail. So again, much in the same way that
18:00
If all we do is think about, you know, caring about this person and giving them grace, that is important, but there has to be that mastery, that skillset that says, listen, I’ve oscillate as necessary in this environment. And that’s where the skill is. That’s where the heart thing is. And I think that, you know, I’m 53. So I understand the way you do that. I’ve been on both sides. I’ve been on the very extreme of both of these. And now I understand that it comes down to.
18:30
What is the appropriate action to the appropriate degree at the appropriate time? And lots of times when it’s these, when it’s these absolutes, zero context, of course, that’s not going to be the answer. No, no. You know, brother, the only thing that I am absolute out, like the only thing, truthfully, the only thing I’m absolute about is my faith. Every single thing, every single aspect of my life. Hover’s like a teeter totter, and it could be.
19:00
Like I’ve altered many of my thoughts and how I used to proceed. because again, one thing I would ask all men when they’re thinking this thing is how many of your thoughts are fear based? How many of them are based in love? And if we really dissected that, that the alls are nothings, most of the alls are nothings are rooted in fear. Most. Maybe that’s an extreme statement, but
19:30
I have, in my opinion, the less all, like our entire planet, all or nothing just divides. And the more division we have, the more the enemy and negativity and just crap gets the flowed in between. And I’m just not going to be party to that. You’re not going to get me, right? It’s ridiculous. I want unity. We are a species. The human species should have unity and the
19:56
Only thing that is negative, the enemy that steals, kills and destroys our peace, love and happiness can kick rocks. And if we were unified, they would stand out a lot more and we would be able to, as a species, to combat that. Now I understand human beings, fears, insecurities, doubts. Like I get that that’s not quite as easily accessible as I’d like. Humanity has shown that in our time being on earth.
20:25
But I’d like to think that the start of you and I having this chit chat would cause a ripple effect by dropping that rock in the water. The ripple effect would be that men would be like, yeah, you know what, maybe I should not quite be so, it’s black or white, it’s red or blue, it’s this or that. Look, man, Cope Pepsi, we’ve been conditioned for decades to pick, it’s Big Mac or a Whopper. Well, no, it’s Wendy’s. Right, I only swear bird.
20:52
I’m like, you’re a freak. No, I’m just not going to, I’m not going to bite into your nonsense. Yeah. I said it in my Ted talk, my TEDx that when we start looking at our similarities instead of our differences, we see that we are as a species, 99 % there. Yeah. I know that right now, especially in this political environment, there is people that love to create divisiveness. What I have found is that people that don’t have deep meaning in their life.
21:21
deep purpose, look for something to keep them distracted. And if you’re looking for a distraction, you can find it in all of those areas. What we’re asking you to do is to say, listen, don’t really listen to either side or any side of these things. Once you look inside yourself, look inside there and say, okay, I can doom scroll stuff, or I can look inside myself and say, you know,
21:51
Where is there lack of peace? What brings me fulfillment? What brings me happiness? Because now all that attention and all that attention is gone. My intention towards what I can get better at will allow me to let these other things go. And if I get the introspection into who I am, it allows me to connect better with anyone, whether it be a man, my wife, a child, anybody. But if you don’t have those things, all you do is have
22:21
half a dozen little sound bites that you can just regurgitate that don’t really mean anything. And now these people are not listening to try to understand each other. They’re more trying to win the debate. Frankly, I don’t have enough time in my life for that either. No, no. And I want to make sure we’re clear. I understand that it is a challenge to be 30, 40, even 20 years of age and then have to
22:50
be introspective and look at the things that the first things are going to show up are your, your, cracks in your arm. I’m weak in this, I’m weak in that. Like I get that that can be overwhelming and perhaps even a little depressing. Oh, I have this, this, and this. And again, there’s that all or nothing. Instead of looking at all that’s wrong,
23:15
Offset it with well, what do I got positive now? That’s a difficult one I agree because we are conditioned by birth to only look at our our negatives and Not and not view our negatives as a positive right like and I’ve said this before and I’m gonna keep saying it if our school system would reverse our letter scores and make F’s like a’s Right like okay Marcus You got an F in communication
23:44
Awesome. Let’s look at where we need to work on it. Well, all of a sudden then the enemy does all the negativity doesn’t have any power anymore. Right? Because you’re willing to go out and try something different and new, which in this case, in this conversation, something new and different is looking at what is perhaps in need of a little bit of a shakeup and some course correction. If you’re angry and depressed and, and sullen and miserable all the time,
24:14
It is not the world’s fault. Look at you and ask for help from others in ways that can.
24:25
allow you to live a life filled with more peace than anger. Right? Like I’m not saying it’s going to be Mr. Rogers neighborhood all day long. That would be ridiculous. I don’t even think we’re, we are not made as human beings to have true happiness all their lives. We’ll screw that up in a heartbeat. But that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t aspire to live the way that you were born to live. Right? There’s so many things.
24:55
And I look at working out, okay. Working out. I come from, I’ve lifted weights since I was 15 years old, competitive bodybuilder, everything about that sport. And I’m not trying to crap on my fellow bodybuilders or fitness people or people who work out. I’m not, but it’s rooted in fear. I don’t like who I am. So I’m going to do all these things to fix the outward appearance. Well, hold on.
25:25
in instead of all or nothing, how about we do work on the outside as we work doubly on our inside so that there is a harmonious type of thing where I have health, have fitness, have mental, emotional, physical maturity, and I have the functional strength to be able to do whatever it is I need to do. I mean, we always use extreme grip, the car’s off the doors, carry six children out of a fire, you know, all those things, which never really ever happened. But
25:55
to be able to lift a motorcycle off of somebody so that they can move their leg because you’ve walked in on a car accident. But it’s in here, our inside, that truly needs to be healthy because otherwise you’re just lying in your shell of a human being rooted in fear. And at some point in time that cracks. And that fear makes it impossible for us to communicate with ourselves, which therefore makes it impossible for us to have an honest conversation with those around us, right?
26:25
Fact you can have somebody say how are you? know most guys are saying good Good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I’m living the dream. Yeah. Yeah, but now in truth There’s there’s two of that like you asked me how I’m doing I say good because I know I’ve got one millisecond of you gonna listen So, you know, we’re just conditioned. How you doing? Well, I’m not bad. I’m not good. I’m alright at this moment. I’m alright
26:54
That’s an extra 15 second of conversation. That guy’s already half a block down and you know, something that has been really resonating with me is it’s a passage that says, be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to anger. Okay, James 1.19. There’s something magnificent about being quick to hear what you have to say. Slow to respond, just let everything out.
27:24
And definitely if you piss me off, be very slow to responding in anger, but just listening. Now, if we had a world, nevermind a world, if we had half a world that did that, we would not have the division that we have right now. I can say that with a clear conscience. Yeah, there’s, there’s a lot of the division now. And so
27:49
Tell me about what you’re hearing about the book from other people that have read it so far. Tell me about the feedback you’re getting, the takeaways. Is there anything that you’ve heard in response to people consuming the book that may have surprised you? The one that gets me recently is I have a friend of mine who has a son, 11 years old, and he’s on the spectrum. Which what that just means is he needs to be stimulated all the time, right?
28:18
Stimming. Games, right? Like he’s just, he’s got 400 hamsters all moving at the same time. He said that his son sat down and read it cover to cover in a night. Wow. And then wanted to talk to his dad about parts of the book. And his dad had to hurry up and read it so that he would have something to communicate with his son about.
28:45
So, and I gotta be careful, because this one just waterworks happens every single time. So it’s great that you read the book. Like there’s one miracle right there that a boy was able to focus in a lifetime of being all over the place, he was able to focus. Great. Miracle number one. But to have a father and a son be able to not play video games, not get on the doom scroll, not look at TV, but to actually have communication together.
29:15
Brother, if the book doesn’t sell any more copies, if the entire thing goes to shit.
29:24
My mission has been accomplished. I can be happy about it. Now I’ve had friends of mine who are, you know, I’ve known them 10, 15 years who read the back of the book, which you read in the opening and they had no idea. And they have said, I understand now why you were the way you were when I was talking to you 15, 20 years ago, because I was a different person.
29:53
many of us have that different person that’s just waiting to be removed and the version that we were born to be to come out. That is probably the best one. I’ve had some great people say great things, know, nice things about the book. I’ve had, I haven’t had any negatives at this point. And I don’t, I don’t suspect I will because really the book is not, it doesn’t antagonize anybody. just kind of says, Hey, here’s really, I’m just,
30:22
I’m just knocking on the door. It’s up to you to answer it however you’re going to answer it. Right. But when I hear about a mom and a daughter and which is nice to hear females getting into this because at the end of the day we all have problems male specific female specific but as human beings we all believe crap and cry the same ain’t nothing special about us in that way. So the fact that a mother
30:50
And a daughter or a daughter and her father can get together and ask questions and have the dialogue. I couldn’t ask for anything more than that. Yeah. This book becomes that catalyst. This book bridges that gap. It gives them an excuse to have the conversation because they don’t have to say, I’ve always wondered this, what they’ve always wondered is what you wrote about. And now that gives them the capacity to get in the room, to have the conversation because what happens?
31:20
Some of these conversations, some of the stuff you talk about here is difficult. It’s difficult to even look at. And so being able to get in that room is hard. And it’s like, how do I start the conversation? know, a lot of females don’t understand men like to be told they’re doing a good job. Men like to be told, I’m proud of you. Men like to be told, I’m really impressed by how you’re keeping it together now. Right?
31:49
If they don’t understand that and they just think that again, we’re automatons. And again, there are signs we have to compartmentalize and execute. get that, but there’s another 90 % of the time in our lives. We’re around these people when that conversation could be that one thing that keeps him going. They keep them driven. That keeps him focused on what’s really important because again, there’s so many distractions out here and a lot of them are not going to serve the man where he’s trying to go. So if he’s in these positions.
32:18
Yeah, I think this book is a great way to get that conversation going. Yeah. I’m excited for it, to be honest with you. I’m excited at seeing how many of those conversations happen. Any conversation changes the division. You can’t say you’re fully divided away from something if you’re having a conversation. Right. And the nice thing too is again, it stops people from having to walk onto eggshells to have a conversation. Like I said, there are people that
32:48
Like you said, you’re going to have this like really, really shallow banter. Hey, how about this weather? Hey, blah, blah, blah, blah. Hey, it’s Friday. That’s not what I’m talking about at all. People desperately want to be able to take it a level below that and even deeper, but they kind of get stuck with, like you said, almost that idea of, how are you doing? I’m fine. How are you? Blah, blah. And they go on about their life. This book gives them the opportunity to pause and really focus on what matters. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that there’s.
33:17
so important in our day and age that, and the beautiful part is it allows ages, different ages to have a conversation. So perfect example, I’m in a room filled with a bunch of surly old, you know, they’re roughnecks, man, they’re oil guys and they’ve been, they were around when Moses was here and you know, when I’m able to open up about topics, some of them are covered in the books, you know, just
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the vulnerability, it allows them the opportunity to have a choice. I’m choosing to be a part of this conversation, or I’m going to put up my force fields and I’m not going to. Either way, I get to, I, as somebody who’s talking to you, get to see what needs to be worked on. If you open up, great, we can sit there and we can heal some stuff, you know, or at least, at least put some,
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Neosporin on it, you know, or some of that orange stuff that we had as kids. And if you’re not ready, that shows it gets to show you as well. OK, obviously, I need to obviously the subject is not as healed as I thought it was, if at all. And again, I’m not going to buy into the garbage that you and I and everybody else in our upbringing. Real men don’t like as soon as no, no, not going to have it.
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Real men do hug, talk, kiss. It doesn’t make them anything less than they’re human beings who have compassion inside. Do you know that there’s only like, I don’t know the actual, you know, some of your listeners would be like, hold on Marcus, get your facts straight. But true evil, true evil is like 3%, right? Like we talk about men who do bad things to other people. You know, it’s such a small percentage.
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that we’ve empowered them that they have more of a presence than they really do. If you’re a guy who’s made mistakes, stuff that you are ashamed of, stuff that you look and you’re like, I can never say that out loud because you know what? I would lose everybody. I want this book to say, no, no, no, that’s not true because the lie is
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I will lose everything. You will not lose everything. You will gain everything because you will no longer be shackled by fear and embarrassment and shame. You’ll be able to stand and think of the message that it is to your kids. Yes. 25 years ago, I did this and I’m, I’m, I’m hounded in unforgiveness.
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when a kid looks and sees their dad and they’re like, well, so for 25 years and I’m 15, so during my whole life, you’ve had this crap in your head at this time? Wow, that makes sense of why you drank. That makes sense of why you were verbally abusive. What was your dad like? Well, my dad was exactly like me. Well, all of a sudden our children get to see these things and there’s grace and forgiveness.
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that is shown, but more importantly, and it is more important, we learn to forgive ourselves. Most of the men I meet who are angry, I mean rage-filled, when you spend 10 minutes with them and give them an opportunity to even broach the subject of forgiveness on that thing, whatever that…
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thing is, and for some men it’s things, but usually it correlates down to one event. The minute that they can open the door to forgiveness for themselves on that, it is a tsunami of transformation that happens. And all they need is the opportunity. And that’s in a room with either a man or other men where there is no judgment, no condemnation.
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No shit and abuse on them. To hear it and like a bad fart in the room, just let it resonate.
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And then when the time is right, start the process of healing. I know so many veterans that are in that place, so many of them that have almost the survivor guilt. have this, you know, this person had it so much worse than I did. And I keep, you I always say that diversity is not a competition. And that reminds me of
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On our first conversation, were telling me about how when, you teach self-defense, you teach things to women, you teach them to all these different groups. You’ve taught at very elite levels, no bullshit stuff that works. Not the like jumping flying sidekick with 360 crescents and things like that. Right. And you had a woman that made a comment about how she’d been sexually assaulted by a man. Can you tell us what you said to her? So yes. So to catch that up, she had…
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been attacked and I was able because of my past, because of what had happened to me in my past, I was able to say that I had also been violated. And it gave, it gave each of us permission to shed some of the, the guilt with it. I’m going to end up veering off for a second. So just bear with me. When I look at
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every event that’s happened to this point. I have a choice whether I can be filled with anger and hate because all those events happened or what has happened is I’ve been able to use that event. It’s a win-win to help somebody heal and see that they’re not alone, which in turn helps me heal every time I talk about it.
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I’m going to get a little biblical here, so bear with me. But it says Genesis 50, 20, the guy’s talking to his brothers, the soul and slavery. And he’s like, what you meant, he points to his brother, said, what you meant for evil, God turned for good. My entire life has been an example of things that have been meant for evil that did destroy me, that did cause me to do some not so good things as a result of it. And now as a result,
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I’m able to flip it and turn it literally inside out to show the good that happens from bad things. Now, when you’re talking to somebody who is suicidal, had sexual trauma, had any trauma, it just doesn’t matter, man. You’re splitting hairs here. And when you’re able to say to them, yes, I know what the taste of metal in my mouth feels like. Yep, I know, whatever. And it’s not…
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comparing its commonality. I understand the idea that we’re talking about now. Now the specifics is where we get to have the conversation to open up what you are going through without judgment.
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And, you know, I personally cannot go to a woman who has lost a baby at birth. Right? I haven’t, I haven’t the words. I have experiences with the subject of losing a child or that my child has challenges. Right? Logan.
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had the cord wrapped around his throat, for a long time was purple when he came out. So I don’t have exacts. What I have is a commonality of the fear and anger and frustration and rage towards and blame, right? There’s blame, towards doctors, towards ourselves, towards God, towards whatever.
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So if you have, this is my point to this is, is if you have something in your event that you’re ashamed of, I will bet all of your money, you have more money than I do, I’ll bet all your money that that event, given the opportunity, would assist somebody in healing and as a byproduct help you heal at the same time.
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So that whole man adage of hold it in, I believe we’re conditioned by an enemy to hold it in because if we actually shared it, it would help others and it would help ourselves. And that we can’t have that because that’s no, no, no, no, no, we can’t have healthy people because healthy people means that people will be together. So if you’re listening to this and you’re a man and you’ve got that event that you’re ashamed of.
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I don’t know how, but somehow if you can find a way to find somebody of similar and share it together, not only are you healing yourself, but you help that other person heal. And our job is to serve others and heal at the same time. Sorry, man. went off and we were talking about one thing and I didn’t. No, this is what I want. want a long format conversation where people can listen to two guys actually being honest. And I think that.
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Again, as men, what we do is we’re talking about communication. We’re talking about our kids. We’re talking about marriage. We’re talking about our, our friends, our families. lots of times, like you said, if men, if we hold it in and this person is asking us and it’s obvious or something going on and we say, no, I’m fine. Over and over again, people will put up with our bullshit. They always say that we hurt the ones that we love and they’ll put up with it.
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Until they don’t. And the thing is they don’t understand that they didn’t do anything wrong. Right. It’s not something that they did. It’s us punishing ourselves. And then here’s what happens. We talk about that internal dialogue, the internal dialogue that you and I have that may not always be constructive. That may call us a lot of things. Eventually that will come out to those closest to us. And now we’ve poisoned that well.
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And now we’re bleeding onto them from a cut that they didn’t administer, but it’s a wound that we refuse to heal. Yeah. I, uh, I had a conversation two days ago with, so I have Logan, who’s my biological son. And I have a real, I do have a hang up with biological, non-biological at the end of the day, if you’re willing to, if you’re willing to give your life for a child, they’re your kid. Okay. So I got him when he was four, I haven’t spoken about.
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when talking about him in public, so I won’t use his name, but he’s now 30. And we had a conversation two days ago, he’s still in Canada, and we’re just talking, I love hearing about what’s going on with him, he’s really talented in the profession that he’s in. And he asked me about my faith and what was all up with that, and I got the opportunity to ask him for forgiveness for all the
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what he had to go through with me for all those years, because the time that I was with his mother, the time I was with his mother is longer than both of my marriages, right? Like I had a huge chunk of my life with that kid and his mother. And I said, I said, I want your, I’d like for you to forgive me. And I put my hand up and I said, that doesn’t mean that you need to tell me I’m forgiven. I am just saying that I want your forgiveness for
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all these things that I did before.
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And you know, as a 30 year old man, he’s looking at this guy who’s, you know, aged. And I know he has to have very similar thoughts when I think of me when I was around him that aren’t So to have the conversation, one, show him, kid, I made mistakes and I am truly sorry. I am apologizing to you and to your mother for how I was then.
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to show that it’s okay to, as a matter of fact, it’s encouraged to own your shit, to own the good and the bad of what you’ve done. But mostly we just gotta try to remember the bad and own it and not let it be an anchor around our throat that’s constantly trying to hang us because we won’t forgive ourselves. it was such an amazing conversation. And I’m thankful we had it because it ties into,
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if we hadn’t had the conversation, I wouldn’t have been able to tie it into this. That your kids, your wife, your ex-wives, whoever it was that you heard this why they have such a big thing in AA meetings and NA meetings about go and apologize for all the things you’ve done. I’d like to add to that. Yes, apologize and forgive yourself.
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And that is going to be an onion layer that is going to constantly for the rest of your days till the day you’re dead, that you’re going to be finding out what forgiveness really means because there’ll be something me and Marcus are out having a meal and something happens and I but hurting and angry. Find out that it has something to do with something that I haven’t fully or I had thought I had forgiven it. I need to peel back a few more layers.
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Being allowed to forgive yourself and being allowed to forgive others is the cornerstone. I don’t know, not the cornerstone, but it sounded sexy when I said it. It’s the cornerstone of being a man, is accepting forgiveness of yourself and being, giving other people the freedom to forgive you, whether they choose to or not. That’s not your concern. But to own it and say, did you wrong this way.
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And I’m so sorry. And then to make conscious efforts to not let it happen again. And I think that’s a great point. When we acknowledge that we did something, because I know a lot of men that will feign that they’re forgiving everybody for anything they do, no matter what it is, they’ll give you the show off the back. But then if somebody tries to give them that, no, no, no, no, no, no, their ego won’t let them do that. That’s right. And I think that that is one of the biggest
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One of the most deleterious things that can happen because it seems that on the outside we’re doing all the right things. People would say, Oh Marcus, you know, if you talk to him, but the fact that we will not allow somebody else to give it back to us shows us one that we’re full of shit. Yep. And then two, there’s still something in us that does not feel worthy of allowing that to occur. Right. Right. And that’s a lie. Both of them are lies.
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Well, not a lie that we’re full of shit. That’s the truth. But our worthiness, the lie is that I’m not worthy of forgiveness. Lie. It’s all bullshit. It’s a lie. And the more we can be around people who will say out loud, hey, just want you to know that that’s a lie. You are worthy. You are enough. You’re loved. You’re not. But I’ve done this. Yeah, you did that.
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Did you do it now? Are you even the same guy now that you were back then? You know, it’s been, I said it and I know I must’ve stolen it from somebody. If you could talk to the guy that you were then now, what would you say to him? Well, I would tell him not to do that. Right. But did you know then not to do that? And now there’s people who say, well, common sense would say that when you hurt somebody, should know that you’re not supposed to hurt somebody.
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Hold on a second. You don’t know what that person, how they were brought up. You have no idea if they associate violence with love or if they associate alcohol with that’s what you got to do. You get drunk, you pass out, you make phone calls in the morning about sorry for what I said. You have no idea. Forgive the person you were back then because you didn’t know then what you know now and own it and say, I didn’t know.
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back then what I know now and I’m sorry for how I was back then but right now this moment I’m not that same dude and I’m saying that to our fellow men or women or anybody who’s got shit that they’ve lied to themselves about I’m still that person you’re not that same person you’re not you’re not the fact that you know that you’re not you know that you were that person that way shows that you’re not the same person because if you were you wouldn’t be able to differentiate between now and then yeah you couldn’t even recognize the behavior
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Right. think also that it’s important because until we see the pattern, until we realize that it’s there, or even this internal dialogue, like you’re saying, we, hear these negative things. It’s like, well, step back for a second. Who told you that? And lots of times they may not be able to put a finger on it, but if you’re like, but if you had to guess who would it be again, very young age, that was probably told to you. person probably told you, like you said, a parent. then again,
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Okay, let’s say that that is true, that they said that. Not what they’re saying is true, but it’s true that they said that. Let’s look at them. They were doing the best they could. They’re a flawed human. You never know until you’re a parent how apparent it is that you don’t know how to do this because what happens generations ago, that sort of parenting does not necessarily come into how we’re doing things now and how this person is and then how.
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Everything has changed in society, whether it be good or bad, there’s advancements, there’s decreases. So understanding that helps us see as like, maybe if I really, really just pulled on this thread long enough, is there a possibility that that’s false? Is there a possibility that that is a lie? And once we acknowledge that there is, you know, maybe this is what I’ve been telling myself. We have this rumination. We have this ability to continually find these things that are negative.
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Because again, it’s something that we can beat ourselves up with and I found also that until we can look at those things honestly and say What is this really telling me? Mm-hmm. Yeah, is it just pointing out this this weakness this chink in the armor? Maybe that’s what I need to be looking at as opposed to Beating myself up for not being a man or thinking that a man needs to be x y and z when in reality is the opposite, you know
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in the time, like I know I’ve written this book because of, you know, finding things about men, but one of the biggest takeaways was there was a forgiveness for my mom. Like when I was there when my mom passed, okay, she was COPD for a week in the hospital, died very, very painfully long way. And I did not have a good relationship with my mom. Now, as you heard, I was a botched abortion. So there’s all these things that in the last year,
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that have been made available to have my thinking. So, and this helps if you’re a parent, especially. Here’s a woman who didn’t want a son. That didn’t go over so well. So she ended up having her husband. My father dies a few years later. Now she’s alone with a kid that she didn’t want in the first place. My mom’s a drunk. She’s been alcoholic her whole life.
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So she’s a drinker. She’s angry that she has a child and she’s angry that her husband died on her. Now she has to go on welfare. So let’s just let that linger. I still always had food. I still always had a roof over my head. And when I was 10, she let me go to Kung Fu. So she had to pay for that. That was that’s money, right? I had to get there the first couple of times with her and then I was on my own. So then just please bear with me listener.
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I’m 10 years old and I get molested the first time by my next door neighbor. Imagine what my mom felt when she found out that she allowed me to go over there, stay the night, and I was molested. Imagine the guilt and anger at herself. So she’s already angry because she has a kid she doesn’t want. She already feels like she’s not a good mom. And now she’s found out that she’s not a good mom because her son was just molested by the next door neighbor.
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And she has no way of letting this out. has no way of healing. She has no way of communicating it because she doesn’t have the tools available. All she knows is drink, angry, and violence. The most beautiful blessing out of this book was the ability to forgive her and understand things from her viewpoint that I had never, never ever thought of. And I carried anger for her till her death.
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On March 9th, when she died, I brought her up to hospice. The girl, the boy that I was talking with that I asked for forgiveness, she was with me. Her last breath, I heard it, I waited, said, okay, she’s gone. I had lied to her just hours earlier. She had asked for forgiveness and I had said, of course I forgive you. Lying through my teeth because I wanted her to have some peace.
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the more we will open up our minds, our hearts, our compassion to our past behavior so that it gives us the opportunity to see where it comes from so that we can forgive the people that did the things they did to us. And I understand there’s people listening right now who are so filled with hurt and anger. They’re like, you’ve lost your freaking mind, Marcus Torgeson. There is no way I’m forgiving this, this, this, or this. I get it. Brothers and sisters, I get it.
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I just want to remind you that the more you hold on to that anger, the only people that are not hurting are the people that did that to you. The people that hurt you, the people that beat you, the people that raped you, they are not sitting back going, ha ha. They don’t even care. They don’t even know it’s you hurting you. And I’m sure it’s not the first time somebody’s heard this.
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I’m encouraging you to start allowing healing to happen. And that starts with the first layers of forgiveness. If you’ll allow yourself to understand that forgiveness is a layer, can say, you can lie through your teeth and say, I forgive that person. Just uttering it is the first step. then, you know, you know, gone on this topic long enough, but, know, start the healing by saying that you forgive the people that did the things, did you wrong? And that’s, that’s a, it’s a bitter pill to swallow.
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It’s, difficult, but that’s the reason. The things that happened to us, the adversity that was thrust upon us may not be our fault, but this is your life. This is your responsibility. And unless you want to be a victim of that every day for the rest of your life, have to walk through that fire. You have to acknowledge it. Not for them, but for you. Yeah. You said something earlier and I want to make sure cause it’s right on there about that. How you said that we.
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end up hurting those we love that are closest to us. If you don’t heal yourself, you are taking it out on your wife and your children and they don’t understand what they did because they’ve been coming in out of the house and they slammed the door back and because you’re so angry at yourself, you yell at them and they’re wondering what they did wrong or your wife. I made you the meal that you really love and now you’re snapping at me. How are we supposed to know that has nothing to do with us?
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So if you don’t want to heal for yourself, well, heal for your family.
58:35
Let them not walk around with eggshells and that they’re they’re walking on broken glass. Absolutely. Thousand percent. People need to get this. They need to get this. There’s no but the only one smiling is the enemy. You know that what is the Marcus Aurelius says? A smile in the face of adversity. Right? Absolutely. Well, our adversity. This is my interpretation of it. When we can smile at what we’ve done bad and who’s hurt us, when we smile at them and say
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I forgive you. You’re not going to have that power over me because my adversity has made me into a stronger version so I can empower and educate and edify my loved ones because of your adversity that you gave to me. And also when we can be honest about what we’ve done to other people, because anytime we’ve hurt somebody else, it doesn’t have to do with that moment ever. There’s always a tsunami that’s happened
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years and years before that.
59:39
Marcus, I love the conversation. I could talk to you forever. Where would you direct us? Where can we buy your book? What’s the website you would direct us to? Where can we hear about you speaking? Everything you’re up to. My website, MarcusTorvason.com, will have access to the book. you’re on Amazon anyways, punch in, be a man, what the firetruck? By the time you punch it in, it pops it up. my social, like Instagram is probably where it’s the
01:00:08
Fastest way of finding out if I got something going on teaching or speaking or or what have you? It’s friends But I’ve gone to acts and link like I’ve just I’m just a complete social media Tramp as much as I dislike it I understand that that’s the cost of being in the world that we’re in right now It’s a necessary evil to spread the message. Yeah, I hear you. I feel you I understand and we’ll have all those links in the show notes Marcus, thank you for
01:00:37
being a man to write this book. Thank you for your conversation. We always have very real and raw, honest conversations. And frankly, that’s what people need. Not just men, not just women, boys, girls, the whole universe needs to hear what you’re talking about. Thank you. Thank you, brother. Appreciate your opportunity that you’ve given me. That’s what we’re here for. We support each other. This is how we win. I love the, I have to swear. I love the shit out of you, You’re good man. You’re a good man. I love you too, brother.
01:01:06
I look forward to seeing you in person sometime. Yes, sir. Thank you for listening to this episode of Acta Non Verba.
