This week on Acta Non Verba, Damon D’Amore, a seasoned advisor to Fortune 500 executives, shares his insights on leadership, resilience, and authenticity. With over 25 years of experience, Damon discusses the importance of self-leadership, adapting to adversity, and maintaining one’s core values. He recounts his personal struggles, including a pivotal life crisis that redefined his perspective on business and life. The episode also explores the dynamics of female leadership, the role of storytelling in stakeholder communications, and the critical nature of making informed decisions in times of crisis.
Episode Highlights:
02:21 The Importance of Accountability in Leadership
14:27 The Power of Self-Leadership and Integrity
41:31 The Pendulum of Public Opinion and Female Leadership
45:19 Navigating Gender Dynamics in the Workplace
47:04 Masculine vs. Feminine Leadership Narratives
51:18 Stakeholder Expectations and Leadership
Damon has spent more than 20 years working one-one-one with C-Suite leaders in Fortune 500 firms. His work focuses on psychological performance, crisis leadership and storytelling to gain stakeholder advocacy.
Damon speaks internationally on legacy, personal development, resilience, mindset, crisis leadership and applying the lessons of entrepreneurship to corporate environments.
Half of his clients are female leaders in the C-Suite.
You can learn more about Damon here: legacymentor.co
Episode Transcript:
00:44
Acta Non Verba is a Latin phrase that means actions, not words. If you want to know what somebody truly believes, don’t listen to their words. Instead, observe their actions. I’m Marcus Aurelius Anderson. And my guest today truly embodies that phrase. Damon D’Amore has spent more than 25 years working directly with Fortune 500 C-suite leaders. His work focuses on psychological performance, storytelling for stakeholders and crisis leadership. He speaks internationally on storytelling.
01:13
especially when it comes to women in leadership, as well as personal development, resilience, crisis leadership, and mindset. And to give you some context, more than half of his clients are female when it comes to the leadership component. I’ve met him, I’ve known him online for a while. We’ve admired each other’s work for a while. And then I met him in person at Steven Pressfield’s writing event in Malibu, which we were reflecting on.
01:41
how tragic what’s going on out there has been. Steve’s lost everything. I believe that actually where the event was is probably gone now as well. So it’s amazing how quickly something can happen. And also the caliber of people that were there is why we do those sort of events. I think, you know, when you first get in the business and you go to some of these, you know, $97 to go, to get a ticket to go do these things, and it’s a pitch fest, and you have a bunch of people that are very predatorial. I figured out, you know, after…
02:10
couple of those I was like no I’m only gonna pay for the top tier of whatever it is. So Steve’s event was essentially probably a once-in-a-lifetime event for for the people that were there so incredible people and we were also talking about the fact that leadership has consequences and you can remove a political affiliations or ideology all day at the end of the day either you lead well or you deny and if you do not lead well then there will be consequences not just to you not just the people directly around you but
02:40
you have this continuing reverberation that goes for years to come. Yeah. I talk about that with my clients when we do stakeholder storytelling, it’s like, you know, your first degree stakeholders are, but who are theirs? And who are theirs? Like secondary, tertiary, especially for these large companies, a hundred thousand employees. Like your first degree stakeholders might be a hundred thousand employees, 2.5 people per family average in America. Now you got 250,000 people depending on you doing this right so they can get the paycheck. All your
03:09
immediate vendors, the people, the retailers that sell your stuff. Like you can have a half million people that you are really going to change their lives depending on what you do very, very right or very, very wrong. And it’s daunting, you know, and it’s like, good, it should be now put that daunting out of your mind and let’s go to work. But realize you have a massive responsibility, you know, to a lot of people. Yeah. And it’s that sort of gravity and that sort of accountability.
03:35
that helps us make the correct decisions. And like you said, not just like in this business decision or scale this or fire that, more of the idea of, it’s what I’m putting in my mouth gonna make me a better leader. Is not drinking alcohol going to make me have better clarity Monday when I may need it the most? Is the way I communicate to myself internally with that dialogue, how likely is that to potentially bleed over into these other people that I claim to love and care about? So all these things make that accountability.
04:03
you know, something that you cannot live without, especially if you’re trying to become better in any of these areas. And when you talk to the leader, the CEO, for me, most of the time I would get that leader as a client, and then he’s like, talk to my C-suite executives, come in, do a training, because people start to see them change, and they say, wow, what are you doing? And to them, the beautiful thing is, lots of times it happens so quickly because they’re executing ruthlessly.
04:31
And so they’re not even aware of it. But then when you started hearing their wife tell them something or their CFO that they’ve always had friction with or their COO that’s always hard to get them to do the right thing, all of a sudden they’re like, what’s going on? Like there’s something different. Coach, a lot of CMOs just the way it started out and continued for referrals. But it’s fun when after the first 90 day sprint, they’re like, oh, at the end of my whatever meeting, the CEO is like.
04:58
You’re working with somebody, like something’s different. Like you’re communicating differently, you’re more confident, like, you know, you’re no longer giving a presentation and saying, well, what’s your feedback? It’s like, no, you are supposed to be the authority, which is why they hired you. So you present and then you be silent. And you don’t ask for people to shoot holes in your stuff, not at that level. So yeah, a lot about confidence and identity and how they see themselves. And, you know, one of my favorite things opening up your book is that life, three things can happen.
05:27
what we hope, what we fear, what actually happens. And I always say, there’s three people in every one of this who we think we are, who other people think we are, or who we actually are is probably somewhere in between. So, you know, not that you project overconfidence like some superhero, but people know if you’re bullshitting yourself, especially, you know. When I was in Hollywood, I’d work with writers and we’d go in and pitch the studios. And if they didn’t believe that their movie was
05:56
a blockbuster, great quality. It bleeds through. You could be given the plot to Jurassic Park, but if you’re not talking about it in a way that they believe that you think you can execute this at that level, you’re gone, dude. And that’s a whole nother industry where it’s all about external validation. Nobody self validates like Pressfield talks about them. It’s like even, you know, they go to the meeting, they’re begging for a validation for their parking ticket. Like you just, you’re constantly in a state and Hollywood are begging for validation. So.
06:26
And I come from a Wall Street background before I went into that Hollywood lunacy. So I came from a world of, you know, you live and die by the sword and every day is a black or a red number in Excel and you own it. And then I went to a whole industry of non-accountability and just fantasy land. And, you know, and like you said, we see where it’s, it’s amazing how far people can get simply with the capacity to project that belief, even if they don’t believe it. Ed Mylade, you know, he, in the RTA syndicate, he
06:55
He was having one of the first calls with us and he was like, it doesn’t matter if you believe it, it matters that you make the people listening to you believe that you believe it. And he was saying it to help people get around that narrative of, you know, not having the belief that they need. But most of the people that I find that are not confident are actually not competent. So their feelings are very much usually pretty much right on par with what it is, which comes back to why we work with them, right? And Tony talks about it, it’s stopping that fear of you.
07:24
Look, like everybody’s going to have some degree of imposter syndrome, no matter how big they get. But the difference is that the pros, the professionals with the capital P, the press field professionals versus amateurs, they stop it in that first act and they don’t just convince themselves there’s some great story about who they are. They know the data points, the real truth of why they’re an authority and they cut that shit off. I’ve had it. I’ve been on stage with guys from, you know, when I was venture capitalist, guys from Goldman, much bigger.
07:54
And it’s like, oh my God, why I’m here. And it’s like, I know why I’m here. And then you project and at the end, there’s 30 people in line to talk to me and like five for those dudes. And I’ve actually had big consultants since I’ve been doing what I do now, but I’m on stage with BCG and UI and PWC partners and had people be like, hey, you talked about like, how you evaluate an idea for originality. Can you like send me that? It’s like, no, you can hire me. That’s my intellectual property. And that’s why I’m on stage next to it.
08:24
next to you. So, um, but yeah, you need to be able to be confident and cut that, cut that loop immediately. And if there, if you’re doing it honestly, when you’re not in those moments, when you should be working and honing your craft, if there’s gaps, if there’s data points that are missing to support who you think you are, you either go find them or go create them, go do a bunch of hard shit that’s going to help you say you suffered in this part of your journey and you learn something from it, right?
08:53
Um, people that just have a life of unbroken green lights for days, like they don’t have anything to contribute. They got lottery tickets, you know, I don’t listen to them at all. Well, I, I’ve also found that those people are usually the ones that the biggest adversity that they face is success. Yeah. And that they’re in that place where everything is pretty much been simple for them. And then the minute that there’s any, even, even a hint of adversity, they surrender, they capitulate.
09:22
or they created around them in a way that all of a sudden now, unless it’s like outward ecstasy, unless it’s like perfect, even the smallest inconvenience is impossible. And now the world has turned against them and they play the victim and they fall into that role. And you were talking about Tony. We’re talking about Tony Blair for those of you that don’t know, we’re on the first name basis, but, again, Tony’s whole idea about the fear loop, about understanding fear, leveraging it correctly. I’ve remember, I’ve done martial arts since I was 11. I remember
09:52
buying Black Belt magazine when Tony was on the cover, buying those horrible Panther production VHSs of him. But the idea was even back then through that horrendous, you know, all of those things that were going on when it comes to that technology, he was still able to get through with something very real and authentic. And when he invited me to come out and speak to his instructors at an instructor’s camp in Florida in 2021. And…
10:22
my keynote was essentially he and I just riffing. And it was beautiful because I remember talking, I had either had him on my podcast right before, or I was on one of his, there’s so many of them. And I asked him, I said, before I start, can you tell, would you please tell everybody what you told me? Which was in 2020, he realized, man, I could lose everything. Yeah. And so here is this person who is the master of the fear loop, and he’s like, and I’m right in the fucking middle of it.
10:48
Yeah, he was one of the people that I talked to every day, multiple times during COVID when it first happened because A, we were close, but B, it was like, you know, my business went away in a matter of minutes. Everybody just froze their shit. Right. So I knew what he was going through. And then ultimately, just a month later, I had brands like we need the Christ’s Leadership Program now. And I built one and it went well in like April 2020, by grace of God. And then I kept honing it as I went and rolled it out to other brands.
11:17
And that’s what I’m writing the book about now, but a lot of times I would call Tony and it’s like, I’m a survivor or shit that I went through as a kid, whatever, and consider myself pretty resilient. But there were days like I hadn’t seen another human being in two weeks, you know, and Tony would be like, when they want to break a person, they don’t put them in general pop, they put them in solitary confinement. I know you’re strong, you’re gonna be fucking fine, dude. If you freak out, call me or text me whenever.
11:47
And you know, everybody got through it. And after 21 years in LA, in California, he was the last pallet I’d dinner with before I moved to Utah. I was just like, I need to wrap it all up in a bow and get the bro hug and send me off to my new adventure where I know I’ll be okay. He’s just such a special person, man. He absolutely is. What you see is what you get. You and I were talking earlier before we hit record about, there’s people that you see from afar and it’s easy to put them on a pedestal or.
12:17
you know, idolize them. And sometimes when you meet them, you’re like, dude, this or- Who name their names, but it happened a lot when I was in entertainment too. And it’s like, really? Now I don’t even want to see your work, dude. Cause I know you’re a prick. And it’s the same thing with speakers and authors. I’ve been around some of these stages, shared stages with, you know, certain groups. And you’re like, man, you talk a good game, but man, I see what you’re doing in your life. And-
12:45
that is not what I want to do and I don’t want to be around that. And so like you said, you almost get this, this feeling of wanting it pushes you away. And then, because for me, there was always that. So 2017 Tedx comes out, book comes out not long after that. And if I had listened to the people around me that were in, you know, marketing and advertising, they were like, okay, now you have to have a Gifts of Adversity podcast and now you have to go on a Gifts of Adversity tour and you need to make sure you’re doing this. And.
13:16
I was like, I actually just want to sit back for a second and see if the book lands or see what the TEDx is creating for people and just see what that looks like. I would love to see, because what are we doing as authors? We have a target and we’re trying to shoot there. And then you go through that year, year and a half, two years of locking yourself in a room as Presquill said, and just beating the hell out of yourself every day and reading what you read yesterday.
13:44
or what you wrote, and you’re like, this is garbage, who am I to do this? And then you just keep doing it when it’s not comfortable and when you don’t feel like doing it. Professionals play hard as Pressfield says, and that’s the idea. And then eventually when that came out and I started getting feedback, the Q&A after a keynote to me was more valuable than anything else. And so there’s things where they’re telling you, what did you do here? Or how did you respond to this? And to us, we think we’ve already addressed that.
14:13
But clearly I didn’t do it well enough. So after those years of the first book coming out, now the second book, I’m able to fill in those gaps and able to have real world experience about this is what happened, this is what we did here. We were talking about how neither one of us are writing the book with any AI or ghost writers. And there’s nothing against people that do that. But I want my book to be written by a flawed human being. I want to read from somebody who’s fallen down.
14:42
When I talked to another person that wanted to publish this, they were saying, well, listen, you have, you know, at that point, 200 episodes of a podcast. We can go through with AI and we can just find all the soundbites about adversity and all the soundbites about discipline, all the soundbites about all these things. And man, that just felt so fake and wrong and cheating and artificial. Yeah. Well, when I started getting paid to public speak in 2014,
15:10
After a while, friends were like, oh, why are you getting a lot of gigs? Like, you need to go to Toastmasters. I was like, what’s Toastmasters? So I show up at Toastmasters and really great people, and it was like a great group of people, but they were obsessed with like, oh, you said these filler words, whatever. I’m like, but that’s who I am. That’s my man, right. And then, literally week after week, I would take first place at our Toastmasters thing, right? And people were like, but you used nine filler words. It’s like.
15:39
They feel like they’re listening to a real person, not somebody who’s constantly trying not to say ah or um. And it’s like, yeah, you can’t say ah or um 90 times and sound like an idiot. You need to be able to public speak. But there’s also, there’s something to be said for being real in this world of everything’s been edited and fact-checked and AI scrubbed, and you’re gonna be perfect. Like, I don’t want to listen to that, dude. I’m a Gen Xer, 70s and 80s. It’s like…
16:08
You flawed people, you know, like I always shut off comments in the stuff that I post online usually because they’re swamps where people are just angry and whatever else. And it’s like, well, Nietzsche didn’t have to listen to a comment section to wackos when he published a book. Like, you know, so it’s like this modern phenomena where you have to deal with people that don’t necessarily even want to talk about what you’re talking about. And and to your point before actually.
16:37
You know, we’re trying to talk to this audience and there’s this weird thing that happens that once you get your speech or your book or whatever out, you’re hoping it captures a big audience and you start to abandon the people you were trying to go after because you think you need a bigger audience where in actuality I can’t coach 500 people. Like if there’s 20 people who get my system and like they’re going to be the best clients, they’re going to appreciate it. They’re going to have the best result.
17:05
So it’s this weird thing of being okay with, I used to speak to a lot of YPO groups all over the country. And I, week after week, Kansas City, St. Louis, wherever, $20, 100, 200, 300 million dollar companies, why is nobody hiring me? And it’s like, finally somebody was like, you’d be miserable if one of these people hired you if they didn’t get your system, dude. And eventually somebody’s like, oh my God, you speak to me and we should be to work together. And it’s hard to be okay with.
17:34
All these people are my people, you know, like I’m not trying to be Gary Vee and have a thousand people paying 20 bucks a month to be on some Facebook live shit. Like I know friends of ours are big fans of this guy and whatever, and they serve a certain population, but they don’t talk to the people that I talking to. And some people, sometimes folks are like, well, you should write more LinkedIn posts. It’s like I’m writing a book because my process is a year long. It’s a long form system. And the people that hire me.
18:03
Don’t hire somebody because they read a 500 word LinkedIn post and they’re like, Oh my God, I should work with that person for 12 months and spend all this time and money. Like, so you got to learn to love and respect your demographic and be comfortable if you’re going to have longer sales cycles. You’re going to have fewer clients. You’re going to have to figure out a way to be so good that you can charge more money. That like, it’s a problem. Figure it out. You know, the way we grew up, you got a problem, figure it out. You know, that’s what it is. And again,
18:33
There’s always going to be somebody out there that will be willing to sell you the magic bullet for an astronomical amount with zero ability to follow up or zero ability to explain. It’s like, listen, you said in a six month cycle, this is what would happen. Well, we have to do this. We have to get traction. And I’ve had it pitched a thousand times to me and I’ve seen it with other people. And it’s just like, so for me, I did exactly what you’re talking about where we had this very long cycle, but I’m fine with that.
19:01
To me, my entire career is just this big session, so to speak, where it’s like, there’s ups and downs, there’s undulations, and even when everything’s going well, there’s gonna be something that comes at you sideways, whether it be what happened in 2020, death in a family, whatever it is, but that adversity is a thing that keeps you consistent. So again, Steve talking about resistance and how, again, that guy’s bleeding onto the page and he’s sharing things that he’s almost embarrassed to share.
19:31
honest he was with us, even in that room, because he told lots of stories, but I’ve heard him on interviews be like, I’m reluctant to do the life story because I don’t want to talk about a lot of stuff. He’s talking about suicidal shit, his wife leaving him. I mean, it was so beautiful to have this guy be like, you all idolize me because you’re here, but I’m not your guru. I’m not special. But this is all the horrible shit that I’ve gone through. And it’s like…
20:01
You know, it’s like you love him even more because you’re like, Oh, he he’s been where I’ve been. So there’s a chance that I could get somewhere on the continuum to where he is. If I just, if I’m grateful for the adversity and I find a way to turn it into something positive or like Tony talks about being indignant, like a lot of it is that that’s been one of my superpowers as a kid. You can’t do this. You can’t do that because you come from the wrong tracks or you don’t have this pedigree or you went to the wrong college and it’s like, fuck.
20:31
You, dude. You know, I quit college to work on Wall Street for the biggest firm in the world that did what I did. I made a bunch of money, lost my mind at 26, and then I went to go follow the dream. But it’s like, you can’t work in Hollywood. You didn’t go to film school. It’s like, I’ll show you. And then I’m producing the two biggest reality shows ever in history three years later. It’s like, you know, you don’t know how to coach. You didn’t get your certifications. Well, no, I’ve been working with these people for two decades, and I don’t need to learn out of a binder some system to…
21:01
Deploy some assessment to tell them that, you know, there were unicorn in productivity or there are there are there are kitty cat for accountability. Like, you know, and I, by the way, I’m not shitting on that stuff. I have so many friends that are like ICF, Hudson, whatever coaches, and they serve a very valid purpose, which is the worker bees. The majority of workers in the world need to be told what to do. Right.
21:28
But I’ve had so many people that work at the level that I work with, you see sweet at large companies or you have that. I remember when I first started doing this, some company referred me to the CMO. And I was like, all right. So they said, Oh, this is that person’s assessments from the last year. I’m going through strength finders and discs and ENTJ, like tarot card bullshit. Right. And, um, so I do, I go to Kinko’s, I print them out. I spend like 70 bucks in color. I’m like,
21:57
taking notes in the very first zoom, I get on with this executive big company and I hold it up and I’m like, hey, I read all of your stuff. They’re like, throw that shit out. Like right now, I don’t wanna be pinholed into told I’m good at this. If I tell you I need to get better at being comfortable with M&A, cause I wanna go after this, your job is to help me get comfortable. Like I wanna be unbound unrestrained, like all of his travels or whatever. So.
22:26
And I remember talking to a CEO once and I’m like, we should get more of your like mid-level executives to think like this. And he was like, no, I don’t want them thinking about like strategy stuff. They’re tacticians, they’re supposed to be executors, you know? And so there’s a time and a place for everything, but the people at that level don’t wanna be told that they’re limited to this or that.
22:53
Because the world’s constantly changing, especially after COVID, and like every one of these little ripples, talent retention, supply chain, could turn into a massive crisis. And they need to be flexible and agile, and need to be able to learn new skills. Like 20 years ago, you could be good at this and have a really nice career and retire and play golf and do whatever. But now I’ve coached people through the crisis that had to change their whole business model because they couldn’t get it.
23:23
parts from supply chain or the whole channels of distribution were just wiped out and they survived and they thrived because they were willing to just tear it all apart and start over again where most people cling to what they’ve known because it’s such a core part of their identity and they’ve never been without an identity where people like us when you when you experienced real shit it’s like oh my parents are dead well I’m no longer a son
23:52
anyone like I don’t even that’s no longer a part of my identity, you know, I started this company did really well Walk into parties. I’m an entrepreneur and then it blows up. It’s like well, what do you do? Well, I’m an entrepreneur Well, what’s your company? Well, I’m having right now. It’s like who are you, you know, you go through a brutal divorce No longer somebody’s husband or life partner like that’s part of my identity You know, I’m a dog dad when my last dog died for a year I felt like brotherless because I didn’t have a canine companion, you know
24:21
So a lot of these people, they hold on to what’s worked for them in the past too tightly, and they don’t let go quick enough. And there’s a great Clive Owen movie from back in the day called Croupier. He’s a dealer and he’s like a con man. And he says, you got to hold on tightly until you let go lightly. Like you hold on until this bet no longer makes any sense. And you let it go and you take your loss and you move on to the next thing.
24:51
Um, and I always loved that because you could hold on too tight. You could, you could be the last one, you know, you could be the last great buggy whip maker in a world of automobiles kind of thing, you know? Yeah. We, we saw how Blockbuster held stuck to their guns and JC Penney stuck to their guns and it’s like, lots of times in leadership, the actual best skill set for us as a leader is to learn to adapt efficiently and well. Yeah. So we can’t hold, as you’re saying, we can’t hold on to all these things that have worked to this point because.
25:20
clearly you get to a situation where, and it’s so funny because if we had the humility to realize that 50 years before we got to where we are, there were things that back then people were holding onto very highly because that was the truth and that’s what’s going on. And so we would say, well, you know, this is just an old mentality or this is very, and what are we supposed to do? Again, we’re supposed to look at what we’ve done. We’re supposed to make that processor system or SOP or protocol look and equated by comparison and that’s fine.
25:51
But the reality is just like with what you’re talking about, people seek authenticity. They seek substance because they’re not finding it anywhere else. And social media isn’t necessarily evil. I get it. But just like you’re saying, I don’t pour a whole lot of time into that simply because I understand that people that want to listen to what I have to say will be listening to our words right now. They’ll get it from a book. They’ll hear me speak. They’ll hire me to, to do whatever it is. That’s
26:19
the people that we want because these are people that are willing to execute. They’re not just people that want to sound bite and they say adversity is a gift or actions, not words. I mean, those things are great as a mantra to keep it going, but a lot of the stuff they have to experience. And if they realize that the things are letting go of are so like in the light, like just tangible and replaceable, like, you know, if you hold onto the things that are intangible, the guy you there,
26:47
your authenticity of you and your brand, your honesty and transparency to your consumers, the quality of your products, you’re not going to go make shit in China when you can make it here in charge more. But if you hold on to those intangibles, you will build some, your audience won’t go away. They might go away temporarily because they need to fill a need because you’re not making their product, whatever. But you hold on to those intangibles and it makes great leaders and great brands. And you see it now.
27:13
with this whole rollback of DEI and woke stuff in corporate America, by canceling all programs, the biggest companies in the world. JP Morgan’s announced last week, the cancer shot another program. And it’s like, okay, you, you were holding onto this thing years after knowing it’s not working and you’re getting backlash. Um, but now you, now it’s okay to let it go because everything else, because people know it’s authentic that you’re letting it go because it’s not working.
27:41
We were talking about the fires, not again on that, but it’s like, it’s like everything in politics, 99% of the time, no matter what you do, if you stand up in front of a microphone and you’re like, I took steroids and cheated on my wife, I did this, I fucking stole money. People are like, oh, shiny new thing in the news 24 hours later. It’s the people that dig their heels in and think that like, how dare you even accuse me of this? You know, you see like the Elliot Spitzers, Hillary Clinton’s or whatever it’s like, you know, I remember.
28:10
watching her and a senator and get accused of something. And she didn’t even address the accusation. She was just like, how dare you accuse somebody at my level of that? And it’s like, you think that you’re, and it happens with CEOs brands all the time there. It’s like, well, we’re the industry leader. You know what? What the hell is Hoka? What the hell is a Hoka shoe, right? Now they got 30% of your market share Nike. Like, what are you doing? Like, you know, if you, and a lot of people, I’m a big Nike person, I’m wearing Nike now.
28:40
I have like 80 SB dunks in my collection, but I was just disgusted with their whole social justice stance on stuff. And, um, and I bought other brands for a while. I wouldn’t have been the brand forever, but I definitely wasn’t as ferocious a consumer, but those people are just like, they’re so scared to hold onto what they have, they’ll anybody tells them to do something, I’ll try that. I’ll try that. And it’s like the people that.
29:07
buy your stuff for decades, man. Like I remember walking into a shoe store at like six years old and being like, I want the white Nikes with the black stripe and I want thick black laces because Curtis Blow wears those shoes, you know? And Curtis Blow is authentic. Like, there it is. Like, you know, so not to get off on that tangent, but yeah, I mean, authenticity is a big thing. And part of that, you talk about in your book, is also the ability to be brutally self-honest with yourself.
29:36
A lot of these people are afraid to look in the mirror and be like, really did I make a mistake? Because they’re afraid they won’t get forgiven for it. They’ll be afraid they’ll be replaced. But you’re more likely to get forgiven if you take ownership of it because everybody else in the world is your little tiny consumers living their little tiny lives. They’re fucking up every day and they have to own their shit because they still gotta go to work, raise their kids, pay their rent, like whatever. Like nobody gives them a pass to just ignore the truth. Whether…
30:04
Face by the reporter with a microphone. Yeah And we also see like you say people are now they see that it’s safe some of these bigger companies and brands or some of These giants they see that it’s safe to let go of this But we saw recently when Zuckerberg right like when Zuck came out got on Joe Rogan’s podcast and said hey This is what happened to me. My question is If Trump had lost the election would he have come out and said that hell no He would have stayed in he would have played the game. He would have quadrupled down
30:33
He would have got even more control over all this narrative. And so again, that’s what pisses me off. Standing up for what’s right, it doesn’t matter if it’s the correct time or not. Lots of times people that are correct are just a person that’s right too soon. And then everybody attacks. I’m not on Facebook, I got off years ago because of the success pool, but I’m on Instagram. And my personal account has been shadow banned now for like six months. I would get like 80, 100 likes on my dog pics. Now it’s like three.
31:03
And even my girlfriend in a relationship for a year connected in social media, every week she was like, I don’t see your stories unless I type in your name, bring up your profile and see that you have stories. And it’s like, and this is why, because I supported a former president to be the next, like, what’s my crime, dude? Like Tony goes through this whole time screenshot of you did, you know, this information. And I’ve, I’ve literally shared like a CNN news conference.
31:32
unedited and they’re like misinformation. It’s like, so I’m hoping with these new changes, it’s because they like the Twitter model better of like, you can post your crazy stuff you’re saying, but it’s gonna it’s gonna be truth underneath it. The community is gonna say, community knows gonna come out and what’s not. And I think that is I think if brands took that, that that same tenant, they do a lot better also because
31:57
A lot of times they think they’re doing what’s right. And it’s like, you never surrender your values to the mob because the moment you do, they just want more blood. Like nobody’s going to be satisfied that you’re kneeling or doing some crazy, whatever you, whatever you’re supporting that normal people are like, what, um, you know, uh, you’re never going to win. You know, I had a client who didn’t say anything for the first six or seven days after George Floyd happened.
32:26
And internally on their Slack channel, 40,000 employees were like, what the fuck, we’re a big company when you take a position on this and they didn’t want to. So they put out some meme about like, you know, supporting whatever. And it was like half the people were like, thank you. Half the people were like that. What? That’s not our values. What are you talking about? And then that December, I think George Floyd was like in May or June. I can’t remember.
32:51
But that December, the Wall Street Journal had a big roundtable with all these big CEOs. It was supposed to be about COVID, but it turned into this whole woke thing. Right. And Indira Nui, I think that’s how you pronounce her name. I’m sorry if it’s wrong. The former CEO of Pepsi, Indian woman, minority woman, Fortune 500 CEO said, you should never dive into this stuff as a brand unless they’re burning down your building on the news. The Starbucks is on fire.
33:19
She was like, I posted something that Trump did right that I, that I agreed with when he was president. The third of my employees emailed me, thank you for supporting the president. A third said, how dare you support this warmongering, misogynistic lunatic or whatever. And then she said, most importantly, a third were completely silent. So she was like, when you dive into these waters, you don’t know if you’re two thirds up or two thirds down, and unless you’re directly affected.
33:46
Like, stay out of it. Like, I just want to buy my razor blades. I don’t need some, you know, some commercial telling me I’m like a predator, because I walked up to some chicken Walgreens and I’m like, hey, I like your sweater. Like, you know, all of a sudden I’m like, you know, a potential rapist or whatever. And I remember I drove to the pharmacy, dude, and I like threw my Gillette shit out and I bought some shit razors. And one of my buddies who works in brand integration, the strategy was like, I’m going to do nothing, man. They were a $20 billion company. I’m like,
34:16
That’s what you don’t get. It’s about people with moral codes and systems and values. And I no longer want to be associated with somebody that would think just because I’m a white male, because I walk up with some strange stranger on the street, which used to be okay. That’s how you met people. And I was a kid, you walk up to a girl in the ball and you’re like, cute. You want to go to a movie? Yeah, sure. You know, now that’s like predatory, but, um, yeah, all these brands, it’s, it plays into everything. It’s a storytelling for stakeholders thing. It’s like, who are your stakeholders? What do they really believe?
34:46
And is there something you can authentically say to them that they believe that you believe? If there’s not, dot your mouth, just sell them your hydrogen ionized water bottle or whatever it is, right? Like, I don’t know what these people’s political affiliations are. I don’t care. I wake up, I drink my 16 ounces of hydrogen ionized water and it makes me happy. And that’s the other thing it comes back to again, the people that are in these businesses that are looking at again, all these different
35:15
ideologies and they’re trying to see where can we cash in or what is the new thing or how do we get in front of this. It shows you that the very people that are there, the ones that are making the decisions do not have that ethos. They do not have that integrity. And lots of times, again, all leadership starts with self-leadership. So if they don’t have that sort of integrity with themselves, if they can’t be honest, then of course, they’re just going to have these superfluous bullshit conversations about, well, let’s do a survey. Let’s do.
35:43
an idea, let’s take a look at what these people are doing. Let’s look at, deploy whatever this thing is and see what they say. And then based on that data, as a writer, the very definition of a hack is a person who finds a thing that’s like new or the thing that’s current. And then they kind of lean into that. But you build an authentic audience by knowing who the hell you are, telling the truth. And then like you said, with social media, mine’s been in the same situation where I’ll get like an influx and then like a
36:12
and Exfil and of different things, it doesn’t matter. Like I’m not trying to do this to get a follower. I’m trying to have a conversation that means something that will help somebody. If it even gives them like a small insight to say, you know what Damon was talking about, that actually feels like that’s exactly what I’m going through or that’s something that we’re dealing with. That’s the goal because you’re not going to get that in some quick little snippet or you might, but if you do, you’re not going to act on it.
36:42
You’re not going to execute on it consistently. And I think that that’s what everybody wants more of. They, they, they want more authenticity. They want more truth, but they get more social media, they get more algorithm, they get more AI components. And because of that, now they’re, they’re kind of chasing their tail or they’re trying to figure out who’s, who actually is foolish and who’s not. It goes back to press field. Amateurs seek validation, professional self validate, like, you know,
37:09
Whatever you want to say about Trump, even my liberal friends, they’re like, well, you know who he is. Like that dude that was on Rogan for three hours. Now I know who that person is because you can’t put on a front for three hours of some sheen, you know? Um, and, uh, and it’s, it’s real dude. Like even the social media, like my personal page, I’ll post something. And a lot, if it’s, if it’s political, I’ll shut the comments off. Cause that’s why I left Facebook. I don’t want people arguing.
37:35
And so my friend’s like, Oh, you’re a friend of defend your position. It’s like, no, I know I’m a good person and where this position comes from. I don’t need you to validate it. And being in LA dude for years, um, it was tough being a conservative because not just where you’re the minority, but there was this mindset amongst extreme progressives that if you don’t agree with them, you’re attacking them. It’s like, no, like I like yellow. You like green.
38:04
Like, I’m not shitting on your ideology, I just don’t agree with it. It’s like my, my first wife, I remember when Tim McGraw came out, I was like, this is dog shit. Like, I listened to, you know, fucking Willie Nelson and Dwight Yocum. And she was like, well, that makes me feel horrible because I like him. So you think, you think I’m horrible? I was like, no, no. She was like, well, what if I said, I thought Greg Duly wasn’t a good musician. I was like, then I won’t take you to the concert with me. I don’t literally care. Like, I’m not going to enjoy something less because, or think.
38:34
that I think that I believe in my ideology or politics or values less because you don’t agree with them. And it’s a big thing, man, in business too, especially like legacy brands during COVID. If you didn’t say the right thing, you get taken down. You know, it didn’t matter if you have a $20 million Super Bowl commercial. No, enough people on Twitter are taking your shit down. And so they’re constantly scared of not serving.
39:02
everybody’s like, I’m okay with everybody. And, uh, yeah, it’s a different world. You know, I remember when Trump won 2016, I said to all my sad friends on the left, I’m like, you should be happy. Cause since I’ve known you, you always wanted some third party candidate. And I was like, this guy with almost no money on TV ads went on a free social media platform to get a hundred million people to follow him and took down.
39:30
19 career politicians in his own party, one by one, bang, with legacy names like Bush or whoever. He took down the first viable female presidential candidate with a name only second to Kennedy in the Democratic party with a media who later on acknowledged they lied about polls and whatever. This is a true third party independent guy who just rallied people that believed in him and what he was saying. Whether or not you agree with him, you think he’s crazy, um.
40:00
The world’s a different place and that can destroy a brand. That’s, you know, it could destroy the CEO personality. It could destroy the face of a brand if you take the wrong position, you know? And I’ve seen people really struggle the last four years that I’ve worked with. And if they say the wrong thing, it’s like, oh my God, how are we gonna fix this now? And that’s part of the crisis leadership program is if you did lose control, how do you gain control back of your narrative and do it in a way where you’re not like
40:30
fans or customers like how dare you challenge us or tell us we’re bad people. It’s like we made a mistake, we advocated for the wrong shit. Please forgive us and we still want to serve you the way that we were before we lost our minds for six months temporarily and got behind this wave of pop culture hysteria or whatever. I was watching, I lived in a life of 21 years, I’m watching these politicians. I’m like…
40:59
just want somebody to say we messed up and we didn’t do the right thing. We did it for the wrong reasons and a bunch of horrible shit happened and we’re going to try to make it right. But nobody wants to take responsibility for anything. And it’s like somebody’s got to be responsible. Things don’t just happen in some chaotic entropy system. And if they did, you wouldn’t be paying 18% taxes to live in that city because you’re here.
41:28
Yeah, it was like you said, it’s not sustainable. And I think that we start to see the pendulum go the other direction now. And shifting gears, I love that you, I believe you said that 85% of your clientele are females. Um, I have a, one of my female CEOs, she loved the way that I approached. So I, I try to push them on different, you know, physical, emotional, spiritual, psychological business.
41:58
all these things and their own edification. And the physical was something, she’s a CrossFitter and she enjoys that. And so I, we, I’m like, I’m gonna do a five day fast with you. And so we go into that. So we’re doing it together. Obviously we’re checking, I’m checking in, we’re checking in. She’s like, yeah, I got a CrossFit workout coming out, blah, blah, blah. And you know, do I do it? And I was like, yeah. I was like, and you’re gonna fucking crush it. Like you’re gonna PR this thing. She’s like, well, I’m fasted. I was like, that’s not, that has nothing to do with the way that you approach this thing. And sure enough,
42:27
She checks in the next day, she crushed that workout. She also did two other lifts and PR those. And she said, so if I had listened to what my mind was telling me, it would say, you shouldn’t be doing these things. She said, but how am I stronger after this fast? And I was like, well, just the ability to fast gives you resilience. And you had that momentum. My first post of the year on LinkedIn was your brain versus your heart, your mind versus your heart. Your mind was like,
42:57
Oh, it’s a brand new year. There’s so much potential in the hearts. Like it’s just another Monday. It’s like you your brain is like you you would develop four new habits last year and you’re like such a Great person with accountability and the hearts like you’re a slacker. You know it, you’re not as good as you can be it’s like yes, you need to celebrate your things, but you need to listen to the heart in certain situations because
43:23
you forget what you’re capable of, or all you see are these limitations. And yeah, women are, it’s coaching women for the last nine years. It’s been a weird, not weird, it’s been a, especially during the environment, right? Like me too, and then everything else that’s gone on. There’s this idea with a lot of women in leadership that-
43:47
Or especially women right below, like sometimes we get calls from a company and they’ll say, Hey, there’s three potential candidates for the next CMO. Two of them are dude, one of them is woman. We want you to coach this woman and see if she’s capable of doing it. And there’s this reluctance. It’s like, well, I look around, I don’t see the other many female SVPs. So maybe I shouldn’t rock the boat and try to go for this thing because I make good money, provide for my family. All the other women that I came up with, like, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m this role model.
44:16
And it’s like, no, who would ever tell some dude that accomplished what you accomplished, that you’ve hit your ceiling and don’t push your luck? And it happens a lot, you know. It happened in one of my relationships where I’d date in the gal and she had a potential for a promotion and wasn’t gonna go for it. And she’s like, you know, I have these responsibilities. I got here from these other circumstances. And it’s like, you know, 10 years from now.
44:45
When you’re sitting around doing whatever you’re going to, you’re going to a concert, you’re on a beach, you’re driving your car. You’re going to resent yourself so hard for not self-actualizing or at least attempting. If you could only get to 90%, that’s your destiny. Fine, but you be honest with yourself and you go for that, you know? I’m like, you’re going to resent yourself. You’re going to resent your husband who told you not to go for it. You’re going to resent your kids because…
45:13
They’re the ones that you kept the safe job for to keep them in private school. And now they don’t talk to you anymore for whatever you’re going to resent everybody. So just, uh, you know, go for it and stop this mentality of I’m lucky to be here. Like that doesn’t mean you’re not grateful, but you put things in perspective. When I always tell my clients, I want to work with clients that don’t say, I deserve this. It’s like, I deserve the opportunity to have that. Like I deserve to be in the same consideration.
45:41
as every man, woman, minority, like whatever the thing is for that filter. And I’ve interviewed over 80 women for my book, you know, and the common theme is, well, how did you think of yourself when you were on this journey? The most successful women are never, I always thought of myself as a woman in business or a woman in leadership. It’s like, no, I thought of myself as a marketing person, a CFO, a CEO, like woman was down here somewhere.
46:09
And then once you get to that level and you’re able to give back, you support women, you do these charities, you do mentoring, whatever it is. But it’s never labeling yourself to get to a certain point. Yeah, it’s really important, man. I mean, the whole women in business thing is challenging because since COVID, a lot of women left the workforce and didn’t go back. And a lot of women that did go back are not.
46:35
getting up to the higher ranks like you would think they would after all these initiatives for DEI or whatever. And a lot of people don’t know why. And I personally believe having watched it happen that I think that is because they’re not telling compelling stories backed by actual data as to how their stakeholders, the board, their customers, their share price, whatever, are going to benefit from having that perspective at the table or making those key decisions.
47:05
Masculine and feminine narrative traditional like heroes journey versus heroine’s journey external versus internal and the most most successful CEOs even like Jamie diamond He weaves in these feminine type heroine’s journey internal narratives because everybody went through kovat everybody went through what’s going on now You know, it’s like there’s this everybody’s fighting these internal battles and having to overcome resistance fear imposter syndrome whatever
47:34
And there’s a real value in these women. You know, there was a stage in leadership where it’s like, you’re a goddess, we’re all goddesses, you know? And I remember being on a panel with a bunch of people in LA for COVID, like, oh my God, be a goddess, be this. And it came to me and I was like, just a side note, can you imagine if I walked up on this stage in front of a thousand people and declared I’m a god? Like, you know, like.
48:01
It’s literally absurd, right? Like, so yes, be a goddess, have your crystals coach and do you all your stuff or whatever, but the boardrooms, the boardroom, your employees, your team that looks up to you, your shareholders, your stakeholders, the media, whoever you’re looking at, they don’t care that you’re a woman. And I always tell them your board didn’t hire you because they want you to act like a man when you’re doing this position. They want you to retain your femininity. But.
48:31
but exert and show that you have these capacities for skills that are traditionally male, not always male, but traditionally risk-taking, comfortable with finance, comfortable with ambiguity, whatever it is. And that’s a lot of the program is how do you communicate in a feminine way, not girly or whatever, but retain your femininity that, yeah, like you’re the same as everybody else at this table, but you actually bring more to the table because especially in crisis, biologically you’re wired.
49:00
to have more information before you make a decision. Whereas dudes just like jumping out at the first wild beast that runs by to go feed the family or when it get, you know. So in the lead up to 2020, a lot of women were chastised for being too cautious, wanting more information, wanting to be 80, 90% sure before green lighting something at work. Whereas during COVID it was like, well they’ve already done all of their scenario planning. You didn’t want to hear them. So a lot of women.
49:29
thrive during COVID in these positions because they had the planning. Um, whereas a lot of men are just comfortable with, I’ll make a decision that if it goes wrong, I’ll fix it or make another one, like, you know, and I’ve had clients who did, we’ve got chastised for giving too many options for a certain initiative, you know, it’s like, just pick one. It’s like, well, I need to tell these people what all the concepts, yeah, they just want to know that you’re advocating for this and if it doesn’t work out.
49:59
Blame the consultants, blame McKinsey, blame whoever wrote the report for you. And they’re like, but that’s not rational. And it’s like, well, these people aren’t operating for the last generations in a rational matter because it’s their game. They, they’re the only players in the game and nobody’s going to chastise another dude for making a snap decision and it going wrong because everybody else made snap decisions that went wrong. So, um, yeah, it’s getting them comfortable making decisions with less.
50:29
Like a 70, 80% going and being comfortable with ambiguity and then mitigating the risks of the other 20%. Like you don’t just go blindly, you don’t rush into a burning building. You have a plan, you know, unless your dog’s in there, then you rush into a burning building. And like you said too, if we understand that about 90% of our decisions are reversible, that makes it not as daunting. And then again, what have I seen?
50:59
many people that will want to get to 80 or 90% of the data to do what they need to do. But oftentimes that hesitation is procrastination is what it is. They’re doing that. And then by the time they’re in a position to be able to pull the trigger, the data that used to be a green light is now red. Changing. It’s changing all the time. I always tell people, they ask me what’s the biggest change since 2020 with everything I say, stakeholder expectations going up.
51:28
and your ability to make a decision fully informed and the consequences of making the wrong one down here. They expect faster decisions with less information and they expect better results. And it’s like, it’s really difficult, but it’s like, well, that’s why you get paid. That’s why you’re there. And if you can’t do it, maybe you’re suited to be a VP your whole life. I have a book that I give people, it’s called, How to Be Second. And it was written by these two COOs.
51:58
And they’re like, we both realized that we would be horrible CEOs because what makes us great CEOs doesn’t apply to broader strategic whatever. And maybe you are the Karl Rove Machiavelli dude or whatever, and you need to embrace that. But especially for the people and women in the programs who are like, I don’t know if I want to go for that because I might be safe where I am. I always say.
52:28
If you don’t go for it, what, if you saw somebody else in your position with your experience and resources, not go for it, you’d be banging on the window, like in the movie theaters, chatting to the screen, what are you doing? This is your mom, you worked 20 years for this or whatever. So it’s about confidence and identity and all these things that we spoke about before offline, but like, you need to have a complete picture of yourself and who you are in the world, almost as a third person video game and like,
52:57
Who is Damon walking around? How do people see him compared to how I think I’m being seen? And once you see that it’s like, okay, well, how do I interact with the, with this world as the person who’s really in it? Not the person I’m telling myself I am, you know? Um, and if your team’s not confident, cause they don’t believe you believe your shit that you’re spewing, or if, uh, if they don’t believe in the plan because you really don’t, all that’s going to come.
53:27
the top. Jordan Pearson always says like, if you lie, whatever the consequence of the truth coming out down the line is so much worse than if you just acknowledged, I don’t have enough information to make a decision. I think we might be going down the wrong path. Like I’m actually stuck. I don’t know. Just, just, just own it. And then that’s what you have good people around you for to help you problem solve. You’re not expected to go to the mount and come back with, you know,
53:56
the answer carved in stone from the heavens and say, this is what we do. You know, um, a lot of these leaders have a lot more support than they think they do, but when I started working with them, it’s like, well, why do you want to work with me? And for the women, a lot of times is nobody will be a hundred percent honest with me because they’re afraid of offending me, treating me like a woman, whatever. Um, they’re, if they work for me, they’re afraid of me firing them. If they criticize me or whatever. So I want like unvarnished, you know,
54:25
opinion but also it comes down to you need to be able to take that feedback and acknowledge it and see it for what it is and not get your ego hurt or you know like how dare you say that I’m not the person that could handle a crisis or whatever I just literally watched you dude I was interview with somebody the other day and she asked me to write an article
54:54
at the end of the interview for their website. I said, okay, we want to write it on. She said, oh, I saw you do a presentation a year ago or whatever on merging masculine and feminine narratives and how you communication strategy. I said, okay, great. She goes, yeah, it’s really important now because as we’re seeing in LA, like how important female leadership is. And I was like, every woman in the fire department, the mayor’s office I see right now is getting attacked by 9,000.
55:23
delusional, you know, and I coach support women, charities, I support people I mentor for free. And she wanted like this almost to ignore what’s going on and somehow be like, thank God, women are in charge more than they were in the past, because look what’s happening. And I was like, I’ll tell you this right now, I’ll write my article for you based on the actual work that I do. I am not.
55:50
get it allude to any current event that’s going on and somehow like shine a light on something and try to make it look good. And then you see women on the other side, not to be political, but I’m watching Pam Bondi in her Senate hearing confirmation or whatever, people trying to attack her. And she was like, when Adam Schiff said something crazy to her, she’s like, you got censored for saying something just like that. Like it’s a lie? And I’m not even gonna acknowledge that. And it was like, yes.
56:19
They would never attack some dude like that. Well, they attacked Hegseth with like, you know, somebody he slept with or some shit, but like, the point is, if you know who you are in this world that you’re watching yourself go around, you know what the line is. You know when somebody’s got a valid criticism of you or they don’t, or you know where your capacity ends, right? If you’re watching a video game and you need an 80 level sword to fight a dragon, you only got 75, you know you’re not equipped, but you might run into a new-
56:47
role of the company not knowing shit and just think you’re going to put it, you know, piece it together. And it’s like, yes, people do fail upward. It happens and you’ll see it once in a while, but that’s not, it’s a lottery ticket. That’s not a plan for how to run your career or run your business. And the people that really want to do the work and be uncomfortable in service of becoming better. Those are the people that I gravitate towards.
57:15
And then I want to work with them because my business is referral based. Usually I have this presentation that’s like five pages. And when I get a referral for another female leader, I’ll say, Hey, Lisa referred you, you obviously know her. She’s having a great experience. These are the qualities that I see female leaders in your position, succeeding with and needing to succeed their traditionally male, you know, you’re going to have to get comfortable with these. Marcus.
57:44
I can’t tell you even with a personal introduction, how many responses I get. That’s offensive. That’s, you know, uh, that that’s, you know, misogynistic, but how dare you? I can’t believe my friend hired you. You call yourself a supporter of women. But I always say, you know what? You’d work great with my friend Jen who’s a coach. I’ll refer you to take a VIG and that’s it, you know? Yeah. But every one of my clients for almost the last decade that has come back to me, they say, I read your email or read your deck.
58:14
It was infuriating, but it’s all true. And I need you to help me figure out how to overcome this because I know it’s not fair, but I need to be able to survive in this world that’s gonna treat me unfairly. And I’m like, we’re gonna work great. You see the world for what it is? And yeah, like you’re willing to acknowledge that you are at a disadvantage. And no matter what, people are always gonna look at you a little bit askew. It’s like…
58:44
you know, well, how do I stop coming across as a bitch or whatever? And it’s like, I don’t want to say this, but even the most feminist woke dude in the room with you, he’s got something in his brain from the way he saw his grandfather talk to his grandmother. And if you’re the only woman there, he thinks you’re a bitch just by the fact that you’re there, that you had to be a bitch to get to where you are. So don’t be, but know that there’s a line. There’s a line when you could pull out that card. And one of my clients on my website left it.
59:12
testimonial damning to Tommy when it’s okay to be a bitch. And it’s like, great, you know, but you need to know who you are, what your real capabilities are, what your value systems are, you know, what’s a definite yes and a definite no in order to go lead. And hopefully you get feedback from your teams, like I’ve seen from some of my clients. I feel acknowledged, I feel heard, I feel respected. I feel like my contribution is valid, but I’m a little bit scared of her. And I’m like, that’s…
59:42
Fucking great because how many people are scared of these men that walk into the same position and because they’re screaming it’s like oh He’s he’s assertive. It’s like no dude, you know, so Like have them a little bit on their heels They should be a little bit scared of you because they should know there’s a line But you need to know that line. You can’t just say there’s a line. They need to know that you as a person your character acknowledges your whole 360 being as a leader as a person
01:00:12
They need to know that if they suggest something that will go against your value system, you’re not going to be like, oh, we could make a bunch of money for that this quarter. Like, yeah, let’s just sacrifice our values. And there were people that refused to sacrifice their values during all that shit. Twenty, twenty, twenty, twenty one. And they suffered initially, but they’re the brands that came back. And people were like, you never abandoned who you were. And we appreciate that. And it’s the same with keeping key talent. After COVID, talent retention was one of the first big
01:00:42
issues for these big corporations because people were just like spending money left and right to poach people. And it’s like, really, they want to go work for who? Somebody is going to pay them more money at Google than Facebook or work for you because you’re their leader. There’s that old quote, like, out of every hundred soldiers, like one of them is a warrior, he gets everybody else home. Like, and be a fucking warrior, you don’t have to walk around with some masculine, you know, absurd.
01:01:09
shit-cowring of samurai saw in your office, but they need to know that you’re their leader and if they follow you, they’re going to be okay. Like that’s, you know, um, and it’s so rare. It’s so rare. I can’t tell you how many friends have told me in those positions I was able to retain my people that got these other crazy offers during COVID because they said, I’ve seen you live by your
01:01:38
moral and value code and whatever, and do the hard thing or pass up opportunity. And it’s like, yeah, if you want mercenaries to work for you fine, but you can’t build something great. If people are turning over every 12 to 18 months, you know, you want somebody who’s, you know, started in the mail room and now they’re your VP and they got their eye on that prize and they love the company, the brand, what they stand for. You know, they love the culture, even though that’s a weird term right now.
01:02:08
whatever has happened in the last five years, but you need to be able to know who you are, what you stand for as a leader, as a brand, et cetera. Communicated to your stakeholders effectively backed by clear data that they are going to win if they support this narrative and they’re part of it. And then that when bad shit happens and unknowns hit you, they’re going to be okay because you can lead them through the fog because you’ve done it before. And that’s all I refuse to coach anything else when I get referrals. I don’t know about DEI or culture or this or that.
01:02:37
It’s like, if you’re talking about getting your shit together in your head, communicating your shit to the people that need it the most and surviving the shit storm when it’s about to happen anywhere in that continuum of three things, I am confident that I’m as good as anybody else they’re going to hire, you know? And that’s what it is. You know a lot about a leader by the way, they conduct themselves in the face of adversity. Because if they can hold it together, then that means during the easier decisions, chances are they’re still going to make the correct decision. Dude, I had two big…
01:03:06
big things happen in like the spring of 2020 when COVID hit. I had people call me and say, everybody thought my CFO was this like rock star, super like guy. He hasn’t returned an email in a week. He’s freaking out, buried under a stone. And I said, do you know why? So it’s 2020, so maybe 08 was the last big national economic crisis. He’s never faced, unless he’s been in that seat for 12 years, he’s never faced a crisis, right? And then I had women.
01:03:35
who were also struggling, because everybody was struggling, right? Right. But I would have them call me and say, be honest with me, Damon, do you think I was a diversity hire? Do you think I wasn’t ready for this job? It’s like, are you fucking high? I can read to you your whole resume while you’re the right person. I was like, it’s not you. The world’s falling apart. Like, it’s not just your job people are worried about. They go to the grocery store. They’re afraid they’re going to…
01:04:03
kill their grandmother if somebody doesn’t have a mask. They can’t get fucking toilet paper. They don’t know when any of this is gonna end. Like personally, professionally, that’s, I call it a zero point on a timeline. My books called the new zero in my program, the crisis program I built for Adobe, some other people in 2020 was called the new zero. A zero point in your timeline in life or business is when there’s a definite before and after an event that your whole worldview has.
01:04:31
and nothing can ever be the same, right? Even like 9-11, I worked in Tower One. But thank God I wasn’t there. Like I left before that. But it affected a bunch of people in industries, but not the nation as a whole. 08, real estate crisis, et cetera, jobs lost, but the gig economy was born, these trillion dollar companies, boom, boom, boom. COVID was the first time, maybe since the World War, that.
01:04:59
You know, people look around, nothing was, there’s no certainty anymore. And the people who they thought were their failsafe, the government, nobody’s coming to help you, dude, right? And what did they come down to? Companies, brands, doing everything from philanthropy to getting people confident enough to go back to work and lives and, you know, guys like Tony, I can’t go to the gym, my whole life’s falling apart. Get on fucking Zoom, I’m gonna go in my own gym.
01:05:27
in my fucking house in my garage and we’re going to do this together. Right. And so business became the fail safe for a lot of people in crisis in true crisis. And they had to put their identities back together. And I would tell people, this is an opportunity. Now, you know how you’re going to react because it’s going to happen again. They locked down the world and you all fucking complied and they know that you’re going to do it again. So when it happens the next time.
01:05:55
How are you gonna do this differently? Like it took me two weeks of crying and eating ice cream to like buy a treadmill off of Amazon and start working out again. Next time, hopefully it’s two days, you know? But because you’re gonna go through, the fear loop’s gonna start here. You’re gonna be crying and freaking out and doing whatever. Even Tony talked about it, you know, when he was like, I’m fucking lose everything. I can’t pay my mortgage, whatever. But you need to, this is an opportunity and it sounds so, it’s so hard for people to realize like.
01:06:25
My siblings never really experienced true loss. Then my dad dying was the first big one for them. I have siblings and I’ve experienced so much loss in my life from 9-11 people I work with in tower to other horrible things. And I’m like, not that it’s a gift, but your personal experience and knowing yourself more, this is a gift. Like you could only get better at handling horrible.
01:06:55
life-changing situations. Not that you welcome them or whatever it might be, but yeah. And I remember coming out of COVID when I moved to Utah, especially Utah. It was like, I got here, nobody’s wearing a mask. Everybody’s back to work. Like it’s like a time warp to 2019. I went to the urgent care I had a bronchitis. I walk in, in 2021, receptionist not wearing a mask. Doctor’s not wearing a mask. Nobody asked me to fill out a form if I was a jab.
01:07:25
And I was like, okay, this is like a time warp. Like everything that happened was a bad dream, but it did really happen. Same thing for these business leaders. If you survived, it’s a gift that you were able to go through this horrible downswing and then take something out of it that will help you in the future. Even if it’s only one thing, you now have this unique treasure versus everybody else who didn’t make it or the people that put their head in their hands and said, it’s gonna go back to normal.
01:07:54
And for some people that did because their brands were so big enough, they couldn’t lose, but they’re losing now. We talked about Nike, right? Like it was a zero point on the world’s timeline and people’s individual lives. There’s no new normal. Anybody that tells you we’re in a new normal is full of shit. Like every little ripple in the last four years going forward can turn into the next tsunami. You know, even last year, people were like, oh, the stock market’s up. I’m like, dude, this war is raging on three fronts that we might get drawn into.
01:08:22
There’s an election that people are worried about might be fraudulent and their votes not worth shit again. There’s all this other stuff going on that the country looks nothing like most people grew up with and they’re surrendering to it because they got to talk or whatever the fuck else they were entertained with. Like this is really, really, uh, we’re in a balance of a board, you know? And most people were like, no, I think my mom, my 401k is up 40% this year. And, you know, but people who are capable of.
01:08:53
seeking out like what’s possible, what’s the possible monster out there and what can I mitigate against? Even if it’s two things out of 10 potential things going wrong, you mitigate against those two and you are in such a stronger position than everybody else, you know? I remember I used to get on these conference calls with people I was working with on a project and they were all worth a lot more money and charged bigger rates and I was like the little guy in the room.
01:09:21
And a friend of mine was like, what are you doing in the morning? I was like, yeah, I wake up, take a shower, I want my dog to eat breakfast. He’s like, the first thing I want you to do is get in your shower, put it on insanely cold water and stay there for at least a minute. And I was like, why? He’s like, you’ll see. So I do it, then I get, first I was like 15 seconds and out. When I got to a minute, then two to three minutes was like my thing. And then one day it hit me, I got on and these guys were all like, talking about the shit that they were doing.
01:09:49
And I was like, I’m the only one of these people on an 8 a.m. call that woke up and did something so fucking that I didn’t want to do. I know I’m stronger than these dudes, you know? And when it comes down to it, when we’re all presented with a big challenge of what we’re doing as a group, I’m going to be the warrior, brings all these fucks home, you know, whether or not they acknowledge it or are grateful for it. You know, like the sheep don’t have to be grateful, you know, that the sheep don’t brought them home from the wolf or whatever. But, um.
01:10:20
Yeah, man, it all translates into business and people saw their bosses lose their shit, not be leaders that they could count on, not be able to provide answers for them and their family when it mattered most. And they know now when they’re not being authentic, like you said. And if they have a chance to make 20% less and work for somebody that they think is going to take care of them and be honest with them in the next crisis, most people will do that.
01:10:48
You know, especially in this generation of Gen Z’s and what’s left of the millennials, these surveys were all like, Oh, they’d rather buy a product from somebody that aligns with their values than a product that was actually better. It’s like you’re spending money on a car that won’t break down, but you’ll, you’ll, you’ll buy one with a worse mechanical history because they’re woke. So yeah, like unless you align with what’s going on in their own identity, how they see themselves in the world.
01:11:17
They think I hate the word tribe, you know, like people use it and press field and one of his books, I always do the work or whatever. He’s like, there is no tribe tribes bullshit tribes fighting, jumping tribes fighting, turtling, like exclusionary or whatever. Unless you, unless they think they’re one of your people, whether they’re an employee, a vendor, a shareholder, a board member, somebody in the media. Like, you know, you need to think what’s Jim Cranber going to say about this from a big public company, not just what are my employees.
01:11:47
My customer is like, what are the people with the big microphones where I can’t control the narrative? So you need to put out a clear, consistent narrative so that whoever’s saying it, there should be some equilibrium. Like nobody should wonder what your values are, what you’re about and why you’re doing this, you know, why you’re buying this company. Who knows? Well, no, we know. We said it five different times and it’s all the same. It’s not five different answers. And I want to be respectful of your time. I know you’ve got to go.
01:12:16
I do want to ask you, we’re talking about these hardships, we’re talking about Greer, we’re talking about adversity and how we conduct ourselves. Can you tell us about an adversity that you faced in your life that at the time you did not think you were going to get through, but once you were able to go through it, look back on it and say, man, if that hadn’t happened, I wouldn’t be the man that I am now. Yeah. I’m going to start crying. Um, so went through a brutal first divorce, never thought because you’re young, you don’t think you’re there.
01:12:45
but he was going to love you again. He was going to want some divorce person or whatever. Met not only my another wife, but the true best friend, somebody that I was like friends with in a relationship, had spent a great decade together. In that time I started a company, we did great. And then it was blowing up for a number of reasons. Some that I owned, some that were outside of my control. And even when I didn’t believe that, my investors were like, you got to lighten up on yourself on XYZ because those are external. But in a five week period,
01:13:15
In 2015, I lost, I lost all my employees, lost the company, went under, and my wife left me on the five-week period. And after Wall Street and Hollywood and adventure and all these things, connecting the dots backward in my life, I was convinced like, this is my life’s work. People have given me money for this and raised money and believe in me, serious people, like this is where I’m supposed to be. And my whole identity was shattered.
01:13:44
And I convinced myself that all I did was just leave a fucking trail of shit behind me. No matter what I did, I would be better off checking out, you know, I don’t get it in details, but fucking horrible. And luckily I didn’t check out. Um, and the dumbest shit saved me from initially checking out. And then what, when it was my dog, you know, I was like, who’s going to fucking take care of my dog? I was like, I can’t trust my ex.
01:14:13
and he had gone through surgery, and somebody might go to a home that doesn’t give him what he needs. And I kept getting out of bed after being awake for like three days in a really, really bad place, trying to think of a reason to stay around. And so I was like, I gotta take care of W. And then for some reason, one of my good friends came into my mind and he’s on what I call my do not disappoint list. Like there’s a handful of people.
01:14:42
that when I’m making a big decision about life, business, big decisions, I put it through their filter of like, am I being a good human being here? And fuck man, I was just like, if I check out, he would be so disappointed in me. And I can’t like bear that. I just fucking called somebody for help like immediately and got it and kicked him out of it, you know, took a while.
01:15:09
But I was better off for it. Everything that happened since then was so much better. I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing for the last decade almost, that I constantly get feedback about how to change people’s not just businesses but lives, how they see themselves and whether people treat them, especially the Women Who Lead program. We talked about that before. But like, relationships I’ve had, the things I’ve gotten to do, things on my own self-actualization journey, like I can’t imagine.
01:15:39
not doing that. And it was the first time that I was, I’ve been through a lot of shit, personally, family, a lot of stuff where it was dark, but I always pulled myself out. This came back to when 2020 happened, the first couple of weeks and all the business went away and it was like, I can’t leave my fucking house. Oh, when I got COVID really early in 2020, really bad, I had a heart attack scare. I mean, my doctor called my doctor. He’s like, don’t go to St. John’s. All they know how to do is innovate people. You’re fucking healthy. Don’t.
01:16:08
I was terrified, dude, problems breathing. Anyway, I was getting after losing all my business, cause you know how it went initially, I was having all these CEOs, CMOs, CFOs, big companies that I knew for my whole career, texting me with their problems. And finally, after about a week of it, I yelled at one of them. I’m like, what the fuck dude? And he’s like, what? I was like, you didn’t even ask me how I’m doing. He was like,
01:16:37
Dude, everybody knows that like Damon’s the fucking survivor, resilient, like rat in the tunnel. You’re going to be fucking fine. I’m like, I am not fucking fine. And I, you know, like I lost my shit, you know? And, um, and it was the first time I really lost my shit since what I was talking about happened like five years earlier and, um, and to his credit, I got to wave a phone calls from mutual pals after that every day, you know, Dave said, you’re not a right, like talk to me kind of thing.
01:17:07
But people see you as the guy that’s always telling them how to overcome adversity, how to be resilient, how to fucking embrace chaos, how to embrace ambiguity. You’re gonna be fucking fine. And then like Tony talking about in the beginning of his interview with you, like you’re not fucking fine and you need somebody to ask you what’s up. And at my lowest point here, there’s a good question here. I heard the people I trusted the most when I was still fucked up.
01:17:35
Like my therapist, heard my therapist in my head saying all this negative shit, like trying to justify like two marriages blown up, businesses blown up, lost your friends, investors, money blown up. Like, you know, XYZ other family relationship stuff destroyed, like you, like you’re nothing but a fucking, like everybody going forward, think of all the other people you’re going to destroy your lives with, you know? Uh, and as you know, it’s totally.
01:18:04
fucked up, you know, but, but no, it was, it was really, really hard, man. But it was, it changed my perspective on everything. And no matter what happened, like I remember, until business came back, I remember I ran out of money during COVID and like, wasn’t paying my rent, but I was like, they can’t evict me because with the fucking LA’s under lockdown or whatever. And I remember I got my gas shut off. So for like two weeks,
01:18:34
I’m taking cold showers, not by choice. You know, I’m like eating fucking cereal because I don’t have a stove to use as a, as a grown man. And this is shit that would have gone in my head to be like, you’re a fucking failure. You should have all this backups. And, but as an entrepreneur, you bet. And everything I remember from, I just try to save my company. I emptied my fucking 401k. I emptied my life insurance policy. It’s like, I sold my car. At one point I was taking Ubers around, like you, you go all in when you’re of that mentality.
01:19:03
And you have ups and downs and I’ve had really high ups and really low downs. But coming out of that, I was like, you are a fucking survivor and you’re going to be fine and, and I moved into Utah. Never been to the state. Didn’t know anybody. Um, 50, don’t have any friends, don’t have any family. And when I first got here, I remember I took my truck to go get the world changed. And I live way at the base of the mountain miles from the main road.
01:19:32
trying to call an Uber and the guy’s like, what are you doing? And I was like, call Uber to get home. And he’s like, there’s no Uber in this town, dude. It’s not fucking Salt Lake here. And I will wait for the cab companies. No cabs down here. Now they call somebody. I’m like, I don’t know anybody. He’s like, you got to walk them. So dude, um, it’s like 92 degree weather in July of 21. The fires are raging in California. We’re getting like ashes, but I’m fucking sweating. I’m walking up this hill for three miles.
01:19:58
You think you’re in shape, you’re not in shape, 50 years old. And I got there and it hit me. It was like, you’re totally alone, dude. Like you are starting over at a zero point in your life. No relationships, no family, no friends you can call them, like pick you up and drive you home. So I walked back down the hill a few hours later to get my car, got in my truck, drove for Dick’s boarding, bought a bicycle, threw in the back of the truck. And I was like,
01:20:28
Solution, done, not freaking out, no scarcity mindset, next problem, next thing to work on. Go join a gym, go to the gun range, go join a fucking book club, you start meeting people. Get on Tinder and Bumble, start dating chicks. It’s like, it becomes your friends. So, yeah man, there’s a lot more to that obviously, but I don’t wanna turn it into like a grief porn thing, but it was a big, big adversity point.
01:20:54
And as a person who always saw himself rebound from everything, I didn’t believe I was capable as an individual being with my value system and my code and my ethics of contemplating checking out. And it scared the fucking shit out of me. It was like, you’re not above it, you know? Jordan Pearson talks about like, Hitler’s well, these people that went along with these fucking crazy, like that your neighbors that all of a sudden would turn you over during COVID for having a barbecue.
01:21:24
every book, it’s in your DNA to be capable to be one of these fucking monsters, you know, and it’s in your DNA to be capable, just try to self-select yourself out of the DNA pool. And I was like, not me, it’s fucking weak, it’s for fucking pussies. Like, you know, it’s for people that don’t believe in themselves being strong enough to claw their way out. But you spend enough days wide awake by yourself, fucking crying and hearing nothing in your head but…
01:21:54
This is a logical thing and you’re, you’re a critical thinker and you’re like 34 negatives, one positive, fucking 33 to one wins, you know? Um, so yeah, I don’t want to talk about that a lot, but you asked me so, and you’re a good guy, so I told you. No, I appreciate it. And that’s why, again, people want stuff from a person that they trust. They want a coach that will shoot it to them straight.
01:22:22
And so if I haven’t been through something, what am I doing? I’m basically a virgin describing sex to somebody. It’s like, I, you have to experience an orgasm. I can’t tell you what it feels like, or I can, but it’s not going to be the same. And when you actually, you’re from that place and you understand what’s going on and you can give them even again, the whole idea with the book was I had to write the book for no other reason than to give me closure, but to say, listen, if I can give somebody like even an iota of what I got without having to go through that shit that I went through.
01:22:52
the man I won and you’re doing the same thing as a legacy mentor with the work that you’re doing with the book that you’re writing with everything that you like your ethos that you live every day. Thanks, man. No, it means a lot. And it’s yeah, it’s like, you know, I was fortunate when I was young on Wall Street to build a massive business. We built a million dollar a day revenue business, me and a team after two years. It was massive. But
01:23:21
Also, people are like, and I’ve been an entrepreneur, I’ve done all these things, but people are like, who are you to tell the CEO of a CPG company how to do their job? You’ve never run a big CPG company. It’s like, that’s not the point. The point is, I’ve built big businesses in real corporate America, I’ve done the entrepreneurial thing, I’ve experienced a whole bunch of life shit like you talk about, but I’m not here to tell them how to make a decision, or what decision to make, I should say, as.
01:23:49
CEO of the top three CPG company. I’m here to give them a different perspective of the choices they have because I am not a Harvard MBA, McKinsey consultant, you know, P E I R guy or whatever, or, or I didn’t give them the same 20 assessments. Other coaches did. So I don’t call myself a coach. You’ll never see it. I’m a marketing thing. I am a C-suite advisor. I’m an external advisor period. Um, and it’s like.
01:24:17
It’s up to them to make the choice, but it’s, but, but the feedback is always, nobody’s ever asked me that question. Or I hadn’t thought about it like that. It’s like, well, I didn’t go through the same meat grinder that the other 20 consultants did. I came from practical, you know, not going to college at night and working with these big Harvard MBAs building this business and executing it and being, and being able to sit at that table, you know, like, like, so yeah, it’s just, you need to have the life experience.
01:24:47
and the business experience, but I didn’t build a health insurance company and I’m not coaching only health insurance CEOs on how to do whatever. It’s like, you know, my system’s agnostic. If your head’s not together, you’re not going to be able to communicate effectively. If you can’t communicate effectively, you’re going to lose your shit when shit hits the fan or things start getting question marks and ambiguity. So
01:25:14
Yeah. If I could teach you how to get your shit back together, how to have your identity in check, how to have your mindset straight, how to know you’re going to be okay, how to communicate effectively, and then how to identify those big question marks and then mitigate against those risks. I don’t care if you work for a biotech company or you’re making water bottles or, you know, like, and if you need specialized, I had the CFO of a, of a health care company in
01:25:41
LA called me one time that I got referred to and he was like, we just raised $50 million in private equity. I’ve never been the CFO of a startup this big. I was like, well, dude, neither have I. I can’t teach you how to specifically be the CFO of a private equity back thing. And I referred to somebody else. And a couple months later, he called me. He’s like, I’m going to refer you to somebody else because you couldn’t have taken my money and bullshit me and you didn’t. You did the right thing. It’s like…
01:26:09
What am I gonna do take a crash course of being a CFO for us? Same but there’s lots of people who will be like my system does whatever My system would work if you had a different problem set, but your specific problem is not my domain Absolutely Listen, when is the new book gonna be out the new zero and then where can we find out to learn more about you? And everything you’re up to this would be great man. Thank you. The book I am aiming to be out this fall We’re in the editing process right now
01:26:39
So hopefully around Labor Day. My website is legacy mentor co co.com But I’m very active on LinkedIn so they could find me Damon do more on LinkedIn I think I gave you my URL for the for the happy whatever I respond I’m active on there every day and I actually published a sample chapter on LinkedIn It’s my it’s my pinned story And also if they go to my website above the fold it’ll be like if you want a sample chapter, you know put your email in here, but
01:27:07
Um, it’s called pragmatic optimism. It’s one of my beliefs that you can be an optimist, but you, you need a real. Filter of cold, hard reality and then go be an optimist, you know? And what does that mean? You know, uh, not being a nervous Nellie or whatever, but, um, yeah. So those three places, Lincoln, uh, LinkedIn is probably the best place, but the websites there. Absolutely. Damon, thank you for being on. It’s a pleasure to talk to you again. It was great to see you in person.
01:27:36
And I look forward to many more conversations, whether it be online or in person. You too, man. Can’t wait to see you in person again. Thank you, brother. Thanks. Thank you for listening to this episode of Acta Non Verba.
